Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2024 September 13

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September 13

Sir Edmund Lechmere, 3rd Baronet

Please fix reference number 5 - I cant work out what I did wrong. Thanks 115.70.23.77 (talk) 01:46, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

You claim to have accessed this in the year 20244. Easily fixed. But what's this: Through his second son, Anthony Hungerford Lechmere (1868-1954), Edmund was the father-in-law of Cecily Mary Bridges (1884-1964) whose first husband, William George Lupton (1871-1911) of The Green Estate, Bromyard was, like Edmund, "a strong Conservative and took a keen interest in local (Worcester) politics" and fox hunting. Like his father, Anthony Hungerford Lechmere also enjoyed fox hunting. Anthony and Cecily were the parents of Sir Reginald Anthony Hungerford Lechmere, 7th Baronet (1920-2010) whose grandfather was Sir Edmund Lechmere, 3rd Baronet.? Why do we need to know about the the first husband of the subject's daughter in law? (Is it just that everything that can possibly be said about anybody named Lupton is automatically of encyclopedic significance?) -- Hoary (talk) 01:58, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Hoary, opinions evidently differ on whether everything that can possibly be said about anybody named Lupton is of encyclopedic significance. TSventon (talk) 02:27, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

TSventon, most delicately expressed! -- Hoary (talk) 07:40, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:INDISCRIMINATE comes to mind. The final sentence is a real gem: In 1905, London's Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News highlighted the exploits experienced and many trophies Sir Edmund and Lady Lechmere had won whilst game hunting.. In simpler words, "a wealthy man and his wife shot and killed a lot of animals 120 years ago".

"Success stories" of draft namespace

In German Wikipedia, a vote is in preparation to introduce draft namespace. For this I am looking for "success stories" of English draft namespace, i.e.: Featured articles that have started as a draft, and to which multiple (at least several) users have contributed relevant content before it was moved into main namespace already in good shape. What are good examples, please? --KnightMove (talk) 03:33, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

KnightMove, I'm sure that the draft system benefits en:Wikipedia and find it hard to believe that it or something similar would not also benefit de:Wikipedia. So I'd like to help you. However.... You're asking about a draft, to which (while it was still a draft), several users added relevant content before it was promoted to full article status. Hmm, I've never seen such a thing, and can hardly believe that it would occur. Imagine a draft that's clearly about a notable subject but is also defective. (As an example, because it's written as an act of devotion to its subject. Or because half or more of it is referenced to junk sources.) Would a responsible editor who'd like to see it as an article start by adding more "relevant content" to it, or by fixing the problems of what's already there? Either, but I think the latter is more likely. Would several responsible editors all, uninterruptedly, instead do the former? And if so, would none of these be a reviewer who'd remember that "Article submissions that are likely to survive an AfD nomination should be accepted and moved to mainspace"? I think not. If this sequence of events ever occurs, I'm sure that it does so far less frequently than does cooperation between one creator and one established editor, with minor input from a second and perhaps even third and fourth established editor. -- Hoary (talk) 04:33, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh, just have a look at the existing drafts - especially for the special case of film projects which, by consensus, become notable only when principal photpgraphy has started, like Draft:Blade (2025 film). Multiple users (a high two-digit number) have contributed to it, and it is already in remarkable good shape. Once filming starts, a good article will be born. There are several Marvellous drafts like this. I am hopeful that there are like examples (be it with only two users contributing much content) which have ended in featured articles (or be that only good and popular articles with a high number of views).

I am aware that this scenario must be rarer than the case "one creator plus formalizing helpers and minor contributors". However such articles would provide a stronger argument for draft namespace (as compared to drafts in user namespace). That's why I would be grateful for having examples. --KnightMove (talk) 04:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Not sure if it entirely fits the bill, but there is the Lizzy Rose article, which I assisted the creator with while it was in draft space and eventually moved it to mainspace. Mjroots (talk) 05:35, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Last time I created an article, I asked for help, here on this Help desk. Others edited the draft; one of them added a key reference that I'd been unaware of. I doubt it would ever have made it to mainspace without their help. (I wonder how Germans manage without this possibility.) Maproom (talk) 06:53, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

de Wikipedia has their version of Wikipedia:User pages, so they can have user space drafts. The exact rules are likely to be slightly different. TSventon (talk) 08:48, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Right. But drafts in user spaces are rather hidden from other users, so it's hard to establish cooperation there. A draft space would come in handy. --KnightMove (talk) 10:48, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@KnightMove: I agree that the additional visibility of draft space is useful. How would drafts by new or conflict of interest editors get published? Here we would advise new or COI editors to use Wikipedia:Articles for creation. TSventon (talk) 15:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

@KnightMove, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but Draft:Progress Studies could be a great example. Biohistorian15 (talk) 16:37, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Indeed it is, thank you. Do you know by any chance a good article (no longer a draft) that started this way? --KnightMove (talk) 16:41, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

@Biohistorian15: TSventon (talk) 14:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, no. But this one may well end up being a GA relatively soon. Biohistorian15 (talk) 14:22, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

You could search through Category:GA-Class AfC articles and Category:FA-Class AfC articles, since by definition all AfC articles were a draft at one point. Though many of these drafts were worked on by a single person. Reconrabbit 14:56, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

@Reconrabbit: Thanks for that hint. However not all articles in there seem to have been drafts; 2014 FIFA World Cup final was apparently not, when I look at the history (also the newer edits)? Do you know why? --KnightMove (talk) 15:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

That page in particular was created as an Articles for Creation redirect (Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects), I don't know exactly what the process was but it looks like a short request is added to the page and then someone creates it without a draft. It was expanded later. So that is another path from Articles for Creation to become a good article: a redirect is expanded significantly.

Category:Promising draft articles is another useful place to look.

I found one article that meets the criteria of "existed as a draft" and "multiple users have contributed relevant content before it was moved into main namespace": Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. You can find other articles like this by looking at films or works that are announced well before significant coverage appears. Reconrabbit 15:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Excellent, thank you very much! --KnightMove (talk) 19:33, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Request rolback

While I was editing on the Italy Davis Cup team page, a problem occurred: I was forced to delete my first edit as there was a problem with the images, but not having rollback rights I made the situation worse. I kindly request a complete rollback.
This is the first time this has happened to me. JacktheBrown (talk) 04:04, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Rollback to which version? Whichever it is, open it in your browser. Then opt to edit it. You'll get a warning message. Don't edit it; simply save it. Done! -- Hoary (talk) 04:36, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@Hoary: delete all my edits, so the version is the last one before my changes. JacktheBrown (talk) 04:40, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

You can open the last version before your changes, and either save that anew, or begin editing again from there. CMD (talk) 04:43, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis: I can't paste the whole text, a normal rollback would be preferable. JacktheBrown (talk) 04:52, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I have reverted all your edits. It doesn't require rollback rights but you use the mobile version and I don't know whether it's possible to revert to an old version there. You can click "Desktop" at the bottom of a page to switch to the desktop version where it works as described. Click "Mobile view" to switch back. PrimeHunter (talk) 05:03, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@PrimeHunter: thank you. JacktheBrown (talk) 05:59, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

User interactions

Is there some way to find all the times a given user has ever posted on another user's talk page? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:26, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs Like [1]? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:33, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs The amount of information you can get straight from the "Edit count" link at the bottom of any user's Special:Contributions page is truly amazing. It includes a section detailing the number of edits they have made to any other editor's Talk Page, sorted high-to-low. Wikipedia is watching you! Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:47, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Thank you! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:13, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

How do I write a new page?

Article about a record label that is referenced 100 times in Wikipedia but has no page FreewheelinFrenchy (talk) 09:52, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

A page about one of the most important indie labels of the 1970z, 80s, 90s. Still running today FreewheelinFrenchy (talk) 09:56, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Writing a new article is the most difficult task to perform on Wikipedia. If you have independent reliable sources that discuss the importance of this label as they see it(not as the label itself sees itself) and can show how it is a notable company as Wikipedia defines it, you may use the article wizard to draft and submit an article. I would suggest using the new user tutorial first, and also reading Referencing for Beginners. 331dot (talk) 10:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

My earnest advice to new editors is to not even think about trying to create an article until you have spent several weeks - at least - learning about how Wikipedia works by making improvements to existing articles. Once you have understood core policies such as verifiability, neutral point of view, reliable, independent sources, and notability, and experienced how we handle disagreements with other editors (the Bold, Revert, Discuss cycle), then you might be ready to read your first article carefully, and try creating a draft.

If you try creating an article without this grounding, you are likely to have a frustrating experience, and quite possibly put a lot of work into a project which cannot possibly come to fruition. ColinFine (talk) 15:57, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Sydney Martineau

 Courtesy link: Sydney Martineau

Ref. number 2 is not quite right (?) and also please make the letters MBE. - Order of British Empire - smaller, like they are on other pages. Please repair if you are able and thanks 175.38.37.197 (talk) 10:11, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I think you used the wrong citation template, though I'm not sure which one is better. 331dot (talk) 10:14, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I used "Journal" - which I think is correct - but it is still in RED Please help. Thanks 175.38.37.197 (talk) 12:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

•  Done only citation part.
• I don't understand what do you mean by MBE of Order of British Empire.

kemel49^{(connect)(contri)} 13:12, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Possibly they want "Frederick Alan Martineau M.B.E.", in the Early life and family section, to be styled with {{Post-nominals}}. 57.140.16.35 (talk) 13:58, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

kEmel49, to clarify: The Order of the British Empire (linked above) has five classes, in ascending order

Member (of the (Most Excellent) Order of the British Empire), abbreviated as MBE;

Officer (etc.), OBE;

Commander, CBE;

Knight or Dame Commander, KBE or DBE; and

Knight Grand Cross or Dame Grand Cross, GBE.

Note the post-nominal abbreviations are customarily written without stops, and often in SMALL CAPS. The querant was doubtless just clarifying that 'MBE' referred to a class of this Order. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 21:54, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

There is a template for postnominals. So {{postnom|country=GBR|size=80%|MBE}} renders as MBE, with the size parameter taking a percentage value. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:00, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Parameter syntax

Hi all, I wonder if someone could explain what the ! in brackets does, please? It was added by RussBot.

{{For|other uses|Linn (disambiguation){{!}}Linn}}

Cheers, MinorProphet (talk) 11:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

The edit was [2]. See Template:! for documentation (even though it's not a template call). It can make a pipe inside a parameter value instead of starting a new parameter so it's like making a single parameter with value Linn (disambiguation)|Linn. {{for}} places the parameter in link brackets so it becomes a piped link [[Linn (disambiguation)|Linn]]. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:04, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Got it. Thanks very much for another of your clear explanations. >MinorProphet (talk) 13:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

New page

Liance is my sponsor but I can’t find the button (editing help) mentioned to get direct help: on the right corner, there’s no such button. Secondly, yes, the label I want to write a page for is well worth it: as it is, Wikipedia refers to that label at least 35 times that I have seen, as many as 100 times according to others. This label , remember an indie label that has never had a major label’s help, racked up 2 Gold albums and 1 silver, 1 gold single and 2 silver, discovered many bands and artists in various genres and has been trading since 1979, 45 years as a 3 people organisation! Today, many musicians and other labels say it is a legendary, groundbreaking label that has been at the forefront of indie music from day 1! Surely, that label is worthy of a few lines on Wikipedia rather than being referenced in red (no page yet) in your own pages!! FreewheelinFrenchy (talk) 14:39, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

You may be looking for Help:Editing. Notability is based on coverage by secondary sources, and references in other articles may be a good indicator of that, however secondary sources still need to exist. If you can find enough sources to get a few sentences about the topic down, you can use the WP:Article wizard to set up a draft where others can contribute to the page before it gets moved to article space. Also, I see you're taking plenty of time justifying notability while not linking to the record article. If you can point volunteer editors towards the name of this article, they can contribute to the aforementioned draft article, if you choose to create one. GeorgeMemulous (talk) 14:44, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

If you know the mentor's name, you may go to their user talk page directly to communicate with them. User talk:Liance.

The presence of links may be an indicator, but is not a guarantee that an article should be created. It depends on showing coverage in independent reliable sources that the label meets WP:ORG. 331dot (talk) 14:44, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@FreewheelinFrenchy: Where is the mention of the button you can't find? If Liance is your mentor then there should be a link at Special:Homepage. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:45, 13 September 2024 (UTC)