Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 August 11
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August 11
[edit]Naya Rivera pronunciation?
[edit]I've been listening to multiple pronunciations of Naya Rivera's name,[1] and the current IPA transcription for this is /ˈnaɪ.ə rɪˈvɛər.ə/. Is anyone able to hear the schwa in /ɛər/? My ears don't seem to be catching it. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 06:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
- That transcription represents a "centering diphthong" pronunciation which is found in UK English much more than in US English... AnonMoos (talk) 08:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
- That's an interesting tidbit. Is it present in the pronunciation, though? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 14:12, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
- According to Help:IPA/English, /ɛər/ is the IPA transcription that Wikipedia uses for the vowel sound in square, etc. That help page also notes, "/ær/, /ɛr/ and /ɛər/ are not distinguished in many North American accents (Mary–marry–merry merger). Some speakers merge only two of the sounds (most typically /ɛər/ with one of the short vowels) and less than a fifth of speakers of American English make a full three-way distinction, like RP and similar accents." Deor (talk) 19:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
- Deor -- But it's not the case that the earlier pronunciations leading to most American English dialects ever had a centering diphthong. In 18th-century English, there was allophony such that the traditional "long a" vowel was realized as a normal (non-centering) diphthong when not before "r", and as a long low-mid front vowel when before "r". This long low-mid front vowel did not otherwise exist in the language (only occurring before "r") and eventually ended up being shortened in most forms of American English, and being replaced by a centering diphthong in standard UK English... AnonMoos (talk) 20:04, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
- I can see Tenryuu's point. If we want to give a diaphonemic transcription of a personal name, and that person appears to be a speaker with the Mary–marry–merry merger, shouldn't we then chose the diaphoneme that most closely (phonetically) reflects that speaker's own accent, i.e. in this case /ɛr/ instead of /ɛər/? –Austronesier (talk) 14:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
- Austronesier, is there a Wikipedia convention for this? I'm aware of using regional English for subjects tied to the region or on a "first come, first serve" basis, though I'm not sure if the same would extend to pronunciations as well. I've listened to that video multiple times and I believe that schwa shouldn't be there. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:49, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
- The convention is to include as many distinctions recognized by Help:IPA/English as possible because doing otherwise would be a violation of the diaphonemic principle. Rivera is included in both of the authoritative pronunciation dictionaries, Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary and Longman Pronunciation Dictionary, and they transcribe it with a SQUARE vowel for the British pronunciation, so we shouldn't use /ɛr/ so long as we're using {{IPAc-en}}. Nardog (talk) 05:18, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
- As a non-English person I'd find the conviction and authoritativeness of this answer quaint if my own last name hadn't been butchered mercilessly time and again by English speakers... 93.136.48.85 (talk) 04:00, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- Nardog, thanks for the input! —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 06:06, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
- The convention is to include as many distinctions recognized by Help:IPA/English as possible because doing otherwise would be a violation of the diaphonemic principle. Rivera is included in both of the authoritative pronunciation dictionaries, Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary and Longman Pronunciation Dictionary, and they transcribe it with a SQUARE vowel for the British pronunciation, so we shouldn't use /ɛr/ so long as we're using {{IPAc-en}}. Nardog (talk) 05:18, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
- Austronesier, is there a Wikipedia convention for this? I'm aware of using regional English for subjects tied to the region or on a "first come, first serve" basis, though I'm not sure if the same would extend to pronunciations as well. I've listened to that video multiple times and I believe that schwa shouldn't be there. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:49, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
- I can see Tenryuu's point. If we want to give a diaphonemic transcription of a personal name, and that person appears to be a speaker with the Mary–marry–merry merger, shouldn't we then chose the diaphoneme that most closely (phonetically) reflects that speaker's own accent, i.e. in this case /ɛr/ instead of /ɛər/? –Austronesier (talk) 14:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
- Deor -- But it's not the case that the earlier pronunciations leading to most American English dialects ever had a centering diphthong. In 18th-century English, there was allophony such that the traditional "long a" vowel was realized as a normal (non-centering) diphthong when not before "r", and as a long low-mid front vowel when before "r". This long low-mid front vowel did not otherwise exist in the language (only occurring before "r") and eventually ended up being shortened in most forms of American English, and being replaced by a centering diphthong in standard UK English... AnonMoos (talk) 20:04, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
- According to Help:IPA/English, /ɛər/ is the IPA transcription that Wikipedia uses for the vowel sound in square, etc. That help page also notes, "/ær/, /ɛr/ and /ɛər/ are not distinguished in many North American accents (Mary–marry–merry merger). Some speakers merge only two of the sounds (most typically /ɛər/ with one of the short vowels) and less than a fifth of speakers of American English make a full three-way distinction, like RP and similar accents." Deor (talk) 19:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
- That's an interesting tidbit. Is it present in the pronunciation, though? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 14:12, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
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