Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of municipalities in Toledo/archive1

List of municipalities in Toledo

Featured list candidates/List of municipalities in Toledo/archive1

Nominator(s): Mattximus (talk) 15:26, 6 September 2024 (UTC) and Alavense (talk)[reply]

We are trying to bring up the list of municipalities of Spanish provinces up to the standard seen in the other featured lists of municipalities. Alavense has made an excellent template based on our last nomination and we have one more nomination that already has several supports. We have incorporated those changes into this nomination. Should go smoothly but we are happy to make any recommended changes. Thanks for all your comments in advance! Mattximus (talk) 15:26, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I got nothing, great work! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dantheanimator comments

"in the autonomous community of Castilla–La Mancha, Spain that is divided" ==> "in the autonomous community of Castilla–La Mancha, Spain, that is divided" (add comma after Spain)

I'd already fixed that yesterday. Alavense (talk) 14:22, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! :)

"According to the 2023 Spanish census" => I'd recommend trying to link "2023 Spanish census" with some sort of related article about it if there is (most likely using an ILL to the Spanish Wikipedia?). I tried searching but couldn't find any article exactly about it but, if it helps, I think this article on the Spanish Wikipedia could help.

There is no article for the 2023 Spanish census. Until 2021, they were only published every ten years and it's only in the last few years that we get an anual census. Besides, that article in the Spanish Wikipedia about the demographics is severely outdated. Alavense (talk) 14:22, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see. Well don't worry about it then, looks good now.

"According to the 2023 Spanish census, the province is the 23rd largest by population with 731,112 inhabitants but is the 7th largest by land area spanning 15,369 square kilometres (5,934 sq mi)." ==> I think there should be commas after "by population", "inhabitants", & "by land area"

Reply: I saw you reworded the lead so ignore this suggestion. Instead though, based on the current wording, I recommend having it as: "As of the 2023 Spanish census, the province is the 23rd largest by population with 731,112 inhabitants and the 7th largest by land area, spanning 15,369 square kilometres (5,934 sq mi)"

I added the comma and removed the redundant "is". Do you mind having "but" instead of "and", though? I think it's a good word to point out the gap between 23rd and 7th. It's a very big province, but it isn't very populated, though. Alavense (talk) 05:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, that works fine too. Thanks for the other fixes! :) Dan the Animator 05:35, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Municipalities enjoy a large degree of autonomy in their local administration. Amongst other tasks, they are in charge of urban planning, water supply, lighting, road network, local police and fire fighting." ==> recommend rewording for tone/concision (better sentence?: "Municipalities have a large degree of autonomy in their local administration, with some responsibilities including urban planning, water supply, lighting, road network, local police and fire fighting."

Reply: I still think combining the sentences would be good but let me know your thoughts about the above suggestion

Done. Alavense (talk) 05:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks great, thanks! Just one minor rewording suggestion: "being in charge of tasks such as urban planning, water supply" (its generally better to avoid using the word "like" when possible since its often makes the tone less formal)

Done. Alavense (talk) 07:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thought I'd suggest this but I don't think its too necessary to list out the different tasks municipalities help with (e.g., just say "Municipalities are given a large degree of autonomy in their local administration."). I think its kind of assumed/implied already in the phrase "large degree of autonomy in their local administration" (for comparison, I don't go into details about what Ukrainian raions are responsible/capable for in my Ukraine Oblast lists, instead mostly relying on the link to districts, which has much of the info about local powers). That said, I think it also might make sense to turn it into an efn note (so change it to: Municipalities are given a large degree of autonomy in handling their local administration.{{efn|Amongst some of the responsibilities of the governments of municipalities are urban planning, water supply, lighting, road network, local police and fire fighting.}})

I do think it's important to point out what those tasks are, so I wouldn't relegate that information to a note. This list is about two things (1) municipalities 2) in the province of Toledo) and I think it's essential to cover both in the text: 1) explain what municipalities are for, what they do and how they are legally regulated and 2) give some information about municipalities in the province of Toledo, and that's why we also include information about the most and least populous and the largest and smallest municipalities. Besides, there's only a single sentence about the tasks, no more than twenty words. Alavense (talk) 07:02, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense but that sentence just sounded overly detailed when read in my opinion and its good to avoid repeating too much information from other articles (in this case, the full list of all the powers/responsibilities of the municipalities would probably be detailed in Municipalities of Spain I think). I have very little knowledge of the Spanish administrative system so I guess my question is whether the specific powers/responsibilities listed are unique to/notable for Toledo's municipalities or are just some examples of what municipalities in Spain generally handle? If the specific responsibilities listed are unique, than it makes sense to have it here but if these are common responsibilities amongst all municipalities in Spain, I feel like it would be better just to leave it in the Municipalities of Spain article and have a link to there. Interested to hear your thoughts about it though.

I do see your point. Having combined the sentences already, though, it's a mere half a sentence and I think it does no harm and is actually valuable to have it there. Let me know what you think, please. Alavense (talk) 05:21, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the way it reads now is fine. Only the small word change mentioned above (switching out "like" with "such as" or something similar) is needed and I think it should be good to go. :) Dan the Animator 05:40, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Alavense (talk) 07:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sentences "Municipalities enjoy a large degree of autonomy [...] local police and fire fighting." should go after the sentence "Municipalities are the basic local political division in Spain, and can only belong to one province."

Re Still needs a reply.

Done. Alavense (talk) 05:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The organisation of the municipalities is outlined in a local government law"

Organization of which municipalities? (recommend rewording to "The organisation of Toledo's 204 municipalities is")

The organization of all the Spanish municipalities is outlined in that law and that royal decree. Alavense (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, makes sense, thanks! Recommend rewording to this for clarity then: "The organisation of municipalities in Spain is outlined"

Another very nice idea. Implemented. Thanks. Alavense (talk) 05:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Elaborate on what local government law means. Is this a law created/enacted by the municipalities individually, by the Toledo provincial government, by the Castilla–La Mancha autonomous community, by someone/something else?

It's a law whose aim is to regulate local government. I linked that article for clarity. Alavense (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, the link helps! :)

"(Ley 7/1985, de 2 de abril, Reguladora de las Bases del Régimen Local)" ==> add in the lang template after it so that it looks like this: "(Spanish: Ley 7/1985, de 2 de abril, Reguladora de las Bases del Régimen Local; transl. Law 7/1985, of 2 April, Regulating the Bases of the Local Administration)"

Done. Alavense (talk) 09:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"passed on 2 April 1985, completed by an 18 April 1986 royal decree" ==> better?: "passed on 2 April 1985, and enacted by an 18 April 1986 royal decree"

I don't think enacted would mean the same as completed. They are different texts, one is a law and the other one is a royal decree - the royal decree doesn't enact the law. Alavense (talk) 15:12, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I see. Maybe would finalise be better? In either case, recommend rewording it to have the and ("passed on 2 April 1985 and finalised by an 18 April 1986 royal decree")

I had a go at it. Let me know if you are happy with that. Thanks once again. Alavense (talk) 05:24, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After taking another look, it's getting close. The only thing is to take out the word "then" (e.g. "The organisation of municipalities in Spain is outlined in a local government law passed on 2 April 1985 and then finalised by an 18 April 1986 royal decree." reads better without it). Dan the Animator 05:57, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"plenary assembly (pleno) of councillors (concejales)." ==> try to link councillors if possible

Done. Alavense (talk) 15:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

maybe add inter language links (ILLs) to ayuntamiento, alcalde, tenientes de alcalde, pleno, and/or concejales, if possible?

I added internal links where possible. Alavense (talk) 15:19, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! :)

"meet periodically at the seat of the ayuntamiento, more or less often depending on the population of the municipality:" ==> "meet periodically at the seat of the ayuntamiento, typically often depending on the population of the municipality:"

I don't understand what typically often would mean in that context. The purpose of the sentence is to point out that they meet more often or less frequently according to the population. Alavense (talk) 15:05, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, my mistake, I misread it. Usually more or less is used as a synonym for "in general"/"basically" and similar words/phrases. I'd recommend rewording to something like "meet periodically at the seat of the ayuntamiento, with meetings occurring more or less frequently depending on the population of the municipality"

I really like that. Done. Thank you. Alavense (talk) 05:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Be consistent with the use of councillors vs. concejales (e.g. "by population for the purpose of determining the number of concejales:" probably should be changed to say councillors, etc.)

Done. Alavense (talk) 15:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Many ayuntamientos also have a local governing board (Spanish: junta de gobierno local), named by the mayor from amongst the councillors—it is required for municipalities of more than 5,000 inhabitants. The junta de gobierno local, whose role is to assist the mayor between meetings of the plenary assembly, may not include more than one third of the councillors" ==> "Many ayuntamientos also have a local governing board (Spanish: junta de gobierno local), named by the mayor from amongst the councillors and which cannot include more than one third of the councillors. These boards are required for municipalities of more than 5,000 inhabitants and generally are responsible for assisting the mayor between meetings of the plenary assembly."

Re Still needs a reply

I worded those sentences that way because of the references. If it's a pressing matter, though, I can give a go at rewording it. Alavense (talk) 05:27, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, maybe as a small easy improvement to make it flow better and which should align with the references, reword the sentences as "Many ayuntamientos also have a local governing board (Spanish: junta de gobierno local), which is named by the mayor from amongst the councillors and is required for municipalities of more than 5,000 inhabitants. The board, whose role is to assist the mayor between meetings of the plenary assembly, may not include more than one third of the councillors"

It's alright as-is too although I would definitely recommend switching out "junta de gobierno local" with "board" for consistency (similar to the councillors/concejales change earlier). Dan the Animator 06:07, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Alavense (talk) 07:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The largest municipality by population in the province of Toledo as of the 2023 Spanish census is Toledo, its capital, with 85,818 residents, while the smallest is Illán de Vacas with 3 residents. The largest municipality by area is Los Yébenes, which spans 676.16 km², while El Puente del Arzobispo is the smallest at 0.98 km²." ==> "As of the 2023 Spanish census, the largest municipality by population in the province is the provincial capital Toledo, with 85,818 residents, while the smallest is Illán de Vacas, with 3 residents. The largest municipality by area is Los Yébenes, which spans 676.16 km², while El Puente del Arzobispo is the smallest at 0.98 km²."

I think it reads better the way it is now. the province is the provincial reads repetitive in my opinion. Alavense (talk) 14:27, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's alright. Two edits that should be made though: "in the province of Toledo" should just be "in the province" since its already clear enough which province this is about, and there should be a comma after Illán de Vacas.

Done. Alavense (talk) 05:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

add in the convert temps for all units (example: {{convert|676.16|km2|sqmi|abbr=on}})

Is it necessary for all units? I think it would make the table a bit crammed. Square kilometres are the one and only measure unit used in Spain (and that's the country this list is about), so, from my point of view, including that one convert template at the beginning of the introduction, for the most general piece of information (the one relating to the province as a whole), is more than enough. Alavense (talk) 07:06, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. Feel free to leave them off if you want. I thought I'd suggest in case it helps.

That's everything I have for now. I'd strongly recommend retroactively and proactively applying whatever changes/edits you make on this list to the previous and future Spanish municipalities FLNs. Any case, great work with this list! :) Dan the Animator 14:11, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. We always include the suggestions to other lists. :) Alavense (talk) 07:06, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great, thanks Alavense!! :)

Actually, a few more suggestions...

For the Land area (km²) column, consider making it so that it includes the square miles conversion for each (example: List of spits of Ukraine). Not that its required but I think it helps sometimes, although it's also completely fine as-is too.

Replied to above. Alavense (talk) 07:07, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "Change" column should be renamed "Population change" or, if to keep it short, use the abbr template to make it "Pop. change"

Done. Alavense (talk) 14:44, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the abbr template is used, consider switching the Population density column title with "Pop. density (2023)"

After all, I decided it was better to have the full words, in line with the other columns. Alavense (talk) 14:40, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds and looks good to me ;)

For the photo captions, for consistency & concision:

"Toledo is the province's capital and largest municipality by population." ==> "Toledo, the capital and largest municipality by population in Toledo Province"
"Talavera de la Reina, the second most populous municipality in the province of Toledo" ==> "Talavera de la Reina, the second most populous municipality in the province"
"Illescas is the province of Toledo's third largest municipality by population." ==> "Illescas, the province's third largest municipality by population"
"Seseña, the province of Toledo's fourth most populous municipality" ==> "Seseña, the fourth most populous municipality in the province"

Is consistency really needed here? I don't think having a bit of variety amongst the captions does any harm. Alavense (talk) 14:42, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great point. Feel free to ignore this suggestion :)

For the gallery title, "Largest municipalities in the province of Toledo by population", I'd recommend just saying "Largest municipalities in the province by population"; this list is about Toledo province so there's no need to specify that much imo.

I removed the "Toledo" from the previous sentence as suggested above, but I'm in two minds about this one. Maybe, being the title of a gallery, it should be understandable on its own? I remember having read somewhere that image captions have to be understood without the help of the article title or anything else, so I thought something similar would apply here. What do you think, Dantheanimator? Alavense (talk) 05:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On a second look and thinking it over more, probably best to leave it as-is. A lot of other FLs (including one I got promoted semi-recently) also include the province/region name so probably better to keep it. Dan the Animator 06:11, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hope these help! Dan the Animator 14:29, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for the review, Dantheanimator. I replied to a few suggestions, but I'd also like to have Mattximus' opinion on the others. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 15:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No worries and many thanks for another great list! :) Dan the Animator 03:35, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also pinging Mattximus to take a look over the new replies. Thanks y'all again for the amazing list and improving the coverage on Spain! Muchas gracias! :) Dan the Animator 03:49, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Muchas gracias a ti. :) I've replied to all the suggestions now, Dantheanimator. Some of them require further comments from you. Thank you very much for the useful suggestions and your patience. Alavense (talk) 05:28, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gracias Alavense! Yo publicado nuevos mensajes en la reseña. Espero que te ayuden. (also, sorry if the Spanish is a bit off, it's been a while since I've practiced) ;) Dan the Animator 06:22, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think every comment has already been addressed now, Dantheanimator. Let me know if anything else is required. The Spanish is almost flawless. :) Thanks again, Alavense (talk) 07:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Alavense! :) I went through and made one really minor copyedit but it looks perfect now! Support promoting this to FL status! Congrats on another successful FLN! ;) Dan the Animator 19:29, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Matthewrb

I would recommend making use of one {{as of}} in the lead - that will automatically mark the statements as needing updating. For example, paragraph 1 sentence 2:
{{as of|pre=According to the|2023}} Spanish census, the province is the [[Ranked lists of Spanish provinces#Population and geography|23rd largest by population]] [...]
will render as:
According to the 2023 Spanish census, the province is the 23rd largest by population
but will be added to Category:Articles_containing_potentially_dated_statements_from_2023

Done. Alavense (talk) 16:28, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your alt text in the gallery should describe the images. For example: File:Toledo (37737041515).jpg currently has the alt text "City view of Toledo" but I would recommend adding more detail: "A city view of Toledo. In the foreground is a blue-green river with plants along the bank, and in the background are buildings which are built up a hillside". For more information, see MOS:ALT.

Does it need to be that specific, though? In MOS:ALT, I read Alternative text should be short, such as "A basketball player" or "Tony Blair shakes hands with George W. Bush". Alavense (talk) 16:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was told it always needs to be specific, because alt text is only read by a screen reader when the image isn't shown. In my example above, you see that the important information ("A city view of Toledo") are the first few words. A better example would be the first row of the "Examples" section of MOS:ALT, where the Denmark Flag is described. ~ Matthewrb ^{Talk to me · Changes I've made} 16:46, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the input. Can you please help me with that, Mattximus? Alavense (talk) 16:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, and yes I do recall the alt captions needing to specifically describe the image. All changes made. Mattximus (talk) 23:28, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per MOS:FOOTER, rather than using the commons category box in the Works Cited section, you should use {{commons category-inline}} under an External Links section.

Done. Alavense (talk) 16:28, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I got. ~ Matthewrb ^{Talk to me · Changes I've made} 16:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the review, Matthewrb. Two done, I've replied to the suggestion about the alt text. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 16:28, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Well done! ~ Matthewrb ^{Talk to me · Changes I've made} 23:36, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]