Talk:Sundown town/Archive 1

Archive 1

Questionable References

Kennewick, Washington uses reference 2, but there is just one item in the references section. Where did reference 2 go?

Someone needs to read the lone reference and contextually verify it names all those towns as Sundown Towns. It seems odd that a disproportionate number would be in Illinois. If it is true, then the reason why should be noted here. —This unsigned comment was added by 198.95.226.224 (talk • contribs) 10 March 2006.

In one chapter, the author James Loewen says that integrated towns went sundown like dominos as riots that led one town to go sundown would spark similar movements in near by towns. A well known riot that did not succeed in removing the black population was in Springfield, Illinois, which might explain the numerous Illinois sundown towns. Finally there are other sundown towns they just haven't been posted. —This unsigned comment was added by 66.72.97.137 (talk • contribs) 24 March 2006.

There are lots of sundown towns. That's not a complete list. Loewen did a lot of research in Illinois because he's from there. Pfalstad 01:55, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

In answer to the first question: numbers relate to footnotes, not to the reference list. This is normal and correct. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:07, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Removing Towns Without Reference

As the title says, i am removing cities from the list without citation. So you better find it soon if you want them to stay. Thankszoreos!--Geppy 00:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I just removed another on this basis. I'm sure there were hundreds, if not thousands; I'm sure they are mostly citable, especially from Loewen's book. More would be welcome, I could even see spinning a list out of the article, but not without citation. - Jmabel | Talk 22:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't have the cites to put Glendale, California in the article, but it did have the reputation of being a "sundown town". Even today, when Glendale is quite ethnically diverse, there is a noteable lack of an African-American population.

Towns in Illinois

Just thought I'd add that I've spoken to the elderly in Southern Illinois (including my grandfather who is 84) that saw the signs in Anna and Benton firsthand. Perhaps I should talk to him again and get this documented.~bokonon82 march 30 2009

Reading the main article suggests, at least on the surface, that Illinois is the most racist state in the country. I find it inconceivable that such a high percentage of sundown towns were in Illnois and doubt that this list is anywhere near complete. The main article should mention that the researcher was from Illinois. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.113.162.17 (talk • contribs) 20 October 2006.

Yes: not most racist, just better documented. Of course, well-documented additions would be very welcome. So far, most of the additions that people had made were nothing but undocumented assertions. - Jmabel | Talk 02:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

This is something that is quite hard to document. As Loewen's book mentions, it's not something that these towns want out in the public. --Woohookitty^(meow) 11:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Cnn is currently running a story about sundown towns & Vidor, Texas, which would confirm the article. It's good that it's here.

Thank You.

[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 14:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

What about "White_Settlement"? The name alone implies sundown.

Thank You.

[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 14:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Good work! :) Yeah that's the thing. They exist. And I think alot of the "WHAT?!" is from the fact that it's hidden. It's not something that's out in the open. But yes, Vidor is definitely sundown. I remember hearing that way back in 1989 when the documentary The Thin Blue Line. Came out. David Harris was from Vidor and one of his attorneys mentioned that African Americans refused to spend the night in Vidor. --Woohookitty^(meow) 17:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Here it comes again

Again, let's get slightly better references. "So-and-so said that these towns might be sundown towns" is, imo, very unreliable and not very encyclopedic. Oh, and take a peek at this link here... I mean, there are fifty pages like this on the author's own university-hosted site, listing POSSIBLE sundown towns (it's also notable that each of the pages, as best as I could see, said "POSSIBLE")... and look. We mentioned Kennewick, WA as a sundown town, but the site doesn't. It mentions tons of WA cities as possible sundown towns, but our article didn't. Can you see how this isn't working? Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 03:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you claiming that James W. Loewen does not claim that these towns listed were sundown towns in Sundown Towns? — goethean ॐ 23:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Matt's point is that even the author isn't 100% sure. And if you read the book, Loewen isn't shy about saying that. Some were definitely sundown, including Vidor, Texas. I don't think that Matt would object if we listed the ones that we're sure about. Vidor. I'd go with Anna-Jonesboro, Illinois as well. Pretty solid evidence. But we can't list all that the author does since he's not sure either! --Woohookitty^(meow) 00:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Goethan, I do believe I am claiming, or at least suggesting, that he's not even sure. Even if he were, without some hard, verifiable evidence being provided for us, that still doesn't merit the inclusion of such allegations. This is an encyclopedia, for heaven's sakes! We don't say things that aren't fully notable (one professor in Vermont labeling a bunch of towns sundown towns does not bring notability) and verifiable. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 19:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree with Matt. It's clear from the book that he isn't sure. I get the impression from the book that Loewen just wants a "foot in the door", i.e. a place to start from since so little research has been done on the subject. --Woohookitty^(meow) 12:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Additions

Just now, I added some statements to the article about how sundown restrictions involved more than just living. Any objections, Matt? That's the thing. We can add quite a bit to this article without listing the towns. --Woohookitty^(meow) 13:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

A little delayed, but I should go on the record as saying that I like how the article looks now. Nicely done. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 07:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Why thank you. :) Haven't looked at it in a bit. Should see what else we can add. --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 11:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

1/3 of idaho chinese.

please veryfy with pg number b/f reverting. i need to verify this. pg numbers are neccessary when wikipedia's user deem it is neccessary. it is neccessary now. if this info is valid, do not fear revealing the pg numbers. i have access to the book, just give me the pg numbers, let's verify and we can insert info into article. sorry, but that's reasonable. --Hollerbackgril 14:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, it's quite alright to revert to one's own version. It happens hundreds of times (if not thousands) on Wikipedia. I added the page numbers. If you want more citations from the book, I can add them. --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 15:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The list of cities

I see that a list of sundown towns was added again. Problem is that there is only one source (Loewen) and that one source never is clear on what is for sure a sundown town and what isn't. He uses "possible" quite a bit. We need to find other sources. --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 11:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I don't know why his book keeps getting referenced by visitors--surely he's not the only person to ever mention sundown towns. But yeah, I think the list has got to go. One source isn't remotely enough for such an accusation. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 23:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Misleading

The listing of towns is wholly misleading. 12 of 18 are in Illinois, it gives the false impression that Illinois is/was the location of the most of these types of towns. There were plenty, maybe still are some in southern Illinois especially, but the weight given IL towns is misleading, even if there are hundreds, there are surely just as many in other states. I don't know that examples are even needed, its not like this stuff is easily verifiable, even those who know the material can't say for sure.208.82.225.232 (talk) 05:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you're right. I'll see if I can fix that... Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 20:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

IIRC the book states that it was actually most common in Indiana, but that the Midwest had many many of them. Definitely should not point at one state. --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 06:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's remember to refrain...

from overreliance on a single disputable source. My personal opinion is that this edit [1] is saying things as if they were facts when all we have is one sociology professor's book suggesting certain possibilities. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 23:53, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Bias

This article may contain some bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.222.147.164 (talk) 02:43, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Nothing may about it... very poor article--204.76.128.217 (talk) 21:51, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Reverse racism/ not modern ethnic studies

What rule of Wikipedia does this article not break, in its current form? As editor of two Routledge encyclopedias of ethnic studies, I want to say that this has article has nothing to do with the discipline in 2011. Don't blame ethnic studies for this. It's filled with bias and outright propaganda against white Americans. It has an oddly old-fashioned feel to it-- like a smudged flier some hippie might have shoved in your hand on Telegraph Avenue thirty years ago. If Sundown Towns are still legal, and apparently everywhere, for goodness sake, tell the Attorney General (black) or the President (black)! There's a great difference between racism being legal as it was in the Sundown Town days, and racism persisting despite the laws. But it's 3am and I just don't have the time for this. I suspect who ever does try to fix it is going to wind up in a revert war with a reverse racist.70.231.226.52 (talk) 11:07, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Whatever -- instead of vaguely pontificating from your lofty elevation, maybe you could point out specific problems, and suggest possible solutions? -- AnonMoos (talk) 07:29, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Cleaning up

The article about Vidor, TX, describes an episode of harassment by a white police officer. So I added it as a reference replacing the 'citation needed' tag. I'm also going to remove the "Improved citations" needed note since that was the last 'citation needed' tag. If you disagree, let's talk about it. Tbarron (talk) 11:06, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Reference to Canada

I removed the reference to Canada in the opening line; the term "sundown town" is not listed in the Canadian Oxford Dictionary. To support the assertion that the term is widely used in Canada, some citation would be necessary. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 19:54, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Indiana

As a lifelong Indiana resident, I can assure you all that the quip about Indiana is utter bullshit. This state most certainly has its racist towns, but I can't even think of one that has a color in the name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.111.201.234 (talk) 07:22, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

IN the name? Whitestown, Brownsburg, and, for colors not associated with any race that I know of, Greensburg, Greentown, Greenwood, etc.108.59.48.1 (talk) 20:23, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Pictures of racist signs in sundown towns

Can anyone find any pictures of these racist signs warning non-whites to leave town before sundown? I have not found any pictures online despite doing extensive research. I believe they have existed, but I have never seen these signs in my life. Can anyone find some and possibly add them to the article? 173.51.123.97 (talk) 08:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Edina, Minnesota

There are discussions over at Talk:Edina about whether it qualifies as a "sundown town." Of dispute is whether Loewen (who is referenced extensively in this article) is a reliable source and whether we can use his definition of sundown towns. gobonobo ^{+ c} 17:12, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that owing to Loewen's sloppy (and untrue) reporting of Edina history, he cannot be viewed as a Reliable Source. Juno (talk) 23:59, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Lists of lists...

Removed the lists of books due to WP:LC; without context, this list provides minimal (if any) value. If we want to include them, they need to be references to text, not the content itself, please. The value-added by including these is minimal, as anyone with access to a search engine can get a more up-to-date list than we can provide here.

• Baker, Ray Stannard (1964). Following the Color Line: American Negro Citizenship in the Progressive Era. New York: Harper & Row.

• Chudacoff, Howard P. (1972). Mobile Americans: Residential and Social Mobility in Omaha, 1880-1920. New York: Oxford University Press.
• Curtis, Christopher Paul (1999). Bud, Not Buddy (First ed.). Delacorte Books for Young Readers. ASIN B00BTM5ET0.
• DeVries, James E. (1984). Race and Kinship in a Midwestern Town: The Black Experience in Monroe, Michigan, 1900-1915. Urbana: University of Illinois Press.
• Gerber, David (1976). Black Ohio and the Color Line, 1860-1915. Urbana: University of Illinois Press.
• Lancaster, Guy (2014). Racial Cleansing in Arkansas, 1883-1924: Politics, Land, Labor, and Criminality. Lanham, MD: Lexington Books.
• Senechal, Roberta R. (1990). The Sociogenesis of a Race Riot: Springfield, Illinois, in 1908 (Blacks in the New World). Urbana: University of Illinois Press. ISBN 978-0252016943.
• Thornbrough, Emma (1957). The Negro in Indiana: The Study of a Minority. Indianapolis: Indiana Historical Bureau.
• Voegeli, V. Jacque (1967). Free But Not Equal: The Midwest and the Negro During the Civil War. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

— Safety Cap (talk) 15:50, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 8 January 2019 and 30 April 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jperry98.

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Dearborn, Michigan

Dearborn, Michigan was recently added with the remark "see article". So I did. The article says nothing about it being a subdown town. It merely says "Dearborn was known nationally for its de facto racial segregation under Mayor Orville L. Hubbard, whose 36 year tenure ended in 1978.…" Most northern towns were de facto segregated at least into the 1960s. If segregation there actually means racial exclusion, then fine, but the article doesn't say so. I've asked on its talk page. In any event, the statement in the other article gives no citation at all, and I don't see how one uncited Wikipedia article is supposed to be a valid source for another article. - Jmabel | Talk 00:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• John from Idegon, I wonder if you just now stumbled upon a reprise of an old story. 209.51.172.142 (talk) 16:31, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
  • I edit settlement articles. Not my circus, not my monkeys. I know the policies regarding catagorization, and that didn't fit. FWIW, I'm aware Dearborn was segregated at one time. To this day, there exists all-white communities. To this day, there are communities that practice unwritten sundown policies. Those two lists are not now nor have they ever been the same. John from Idegon (talk) 16:38, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

US image

Shouldn't there be a US sign for the pic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelly222 (talk • contribs) 23:53, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

No, because the image is part of the {{Segregation}} navbox template, not an infobox for this specific article. Racial segregation isn't/wasn't particular to the US. V2Blast (talk) 07:47, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Misleading Article Needs Overhaul

This article needs a thorough makeover because it confuses "sundown towns" - which did indeed exist - with segregated neighborhoods. These are NOT the same thing, but distinct topics. Thus, the article gives a very misleading picture of American society before the civil rights area. Careful clarification along with better verification are needed here. I'm not up to such a big job these days - just making note for the record of a distorted presentation of a notable topic that someone with more time and energy might want to overhaul one day. Textorus (talk) 09:31, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

@Textorus: The twenty-first-century sources in this article are very clearly referring to sundown towns specifically and many of those sources document such towns as a current phenomenon. There is no WP:VERIFY issue. Even just one high-quality source meeting Wikipedia's standards which engages with the existing body of knowledge on the topic—or, say, discusses the related but separate issue you point-to in-depth, racial segregation in the United States, but also comments on the topic of sundown towns—would be of interest.

But as you rightly note a rewrite of the article to say something different than the consensus of what appears to be a great many of the available, reliable high-quality sources discussing the topic would indeed be a big job; I suspect that even just finding where contravening sources might all possibly be hiding would be a big job itself, if indeed such sources exist. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 20:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

@Struthious Bandersnatch: I don't care to debate the merits of this article, and I don't know about what may be going on here or there in 2020, but it seems to me that sundown towns and segregated neighborhoods in the 20th century are both subtopics of racial segregation in the United States, but distinct from each other; just as oranges and lemons are subtopics of citrus fruits, but definitely not the same thing.

The article as it stands today blurs the distinction terribly - a reader unfamiliar with the topic will get a very different impression from what the facts were. I know the difference because I grew up in the segregated South. There were, for example, segregated neighborhoods in every Southern city or town of any size (and informally, in many Northern cities and towns, too, it should be noted); but obviously blacks were not excluded from the city or town, because they lived and worked there. Those sundown towns and counties were found in rural sections, not urban areas.

The article as written also fails to note that to white people, those "sundown" codes were a crime-prevention measure; they believed they were ensuring the safety of their families and property by excluding blacks after sundown, when theft, robbery, and other criminal activity might take place in the dark. This kind of egregious racial profiling is unacceptable today, but that is the way people perceived things then.

All of this is clear to me because I lived in the segregation era and remember how things were. But as you say, it is very difficult to document social behavior in the past. With patience and persistence, it probably could be done, but this old guy is not up to that kind of editing anymore. I just make the point here that it's important to be aware of the distinction between segregated neighborhoods and total exclusion; otherwise an editor is just rewriting history, making it up to suit a preconceived notion. Which is not what Wikipedia should be about. Textorus (talk) 02:15, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

@Textorus: I do think you make important distinctions here; thank you for elaborating. I'd add one terminology note, though I'd defer to your personal experience for the twentieth century and the South: I don't think that "total exclusion" matches up with even your own description of the concept of sundown towns, if black citizens could be present during the day to, for example, patronize white businesses. Something like the Mormon Extermination Order would be better described as "total exclusion" of Mormons from Missouri during the part of the 19th century when it was enforced. The ways we have segregated and divided people are unfortunately very extensive and not a neatly unified topic.

But the article does at least use the term "exclusion" and I'd expect that this is part of your point. It could be worded better, and I think that several other criticisms you make are fair.

As far as this sort of thing being "informal" in the North I do not think that is accurate; this practice is integrally American and has long, deep roots. Take a look at History of New Hampshire § Slavery in New Hampshire (most of which I added, very short so far) which quotes a passage from a 1714 colonial law: Whereas great disorders, insolencies and burglaries are oft times raised and committed in the night time by Indian, Negro, and Molatto Servants and Slaves to the Disquiet and hurt of her Majesty, No Indian, Negro, or Molatto is to be from Home after 9 o'clock.

As you say, ostensible concern about crime, but codified into law in New England more than 300 years ago. At any rate−like you said, no need to get into an extended debate as talk pages are WP:NOTSOCIALMEDIA. But these are important points about the content of this particular article. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 02:57, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Textorus: I would just caution you on your goal of CORRECTING this article that you curb your POV and only write/rewrite what is verifiable and cited. You make some pretty outlandish and uncorroborated statements above that are clearly not NPOV. If you feel that the article has conflated Sundown Towns with Segregated Neighborhoods, that is perfectly justifiable and a knowledgeable editor should be able to knife those out (and/or create an additional page on the 2nd topic). However, efforts to state that Neighborhood Watches and the like are examples of racism will be reverted as ALL neighborhoods do this (as described above by --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡) - even predominantly Black or other minority, to limit crimes like drug sales, gang violence, vandalism, and the like. This is an easily cited truth. I applaud your sentiments and echo the lament of your past upbringing, but many a lofty goal is undercut by over reach. Ckruschke (talk) 19:27, 14 October 2020 (UTC)Ckruschke

@Ckruschke: Whoa there, friend. You are jumping on an innocent man. I have made NO edits whatsoever to this article, and don't intend to, as I stated above on this talk page. You should look at the article history and direct your ire to the offending editor, whoever that is, not me. Textorus (talk) 21:58, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

I neither stated that you had made edits or conflated your words. Sorry, but I'm reading your actual words, Textorius - no mischaracterization needed. Sorry to see you go. Ckruschke (talk) 16:24, 15 October 2020 (UTC)Ckruschke

@Textorus: To be fair to Ckruschke, one can express a point of view in an article talk page or elsewhere without actually editing an article but only proposing edits to an article. Alluding to the many and disproportionate Category:Black people shot dead by law enforcement officers in the United States by making your last edit comment "Hands up, don't shoot" was neither neutral nor in fitting with your previous claims that you are interested in clarifications, removing distortion, or avoiding debate. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹 andersnatch ͡ |℡| 22:40, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Say what?? You boys are nuts. You have completely misread and mischaracterized me. I'm done with you and with this article. Textorus (talk) 23:04, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Ah, such an ardent concern for clarity and truth and neutrality—he will be missed. ㊗️ --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 23:36, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Is a movie review a proper citation for such a serious topic?

The article claims that Northern states could be as hostile to blacks as Southern states such as Alabama and Georgia. Racism certainly abounded in the North, including sundown towns. But certainly such a statement should have an assessment from a more authoritative source than the claims of a movie reviewer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.161.195 (talk) 22:53, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Present tense

From “What are 'sundown towns'? Historically all-white towns in America see renewed scrutiny thanks to 'Lovecraft Country'”, the following:

• Heather O’Connell, sociologist: Sundown towns are “(primarily) a thing of the past” but evidently not entirely.
• Morgan Jerkins, writer: “Sundown towns have never gone away.”
• Historian James Loewen “says that although Black people are beginning to live in areas that were once sundown towns, they still suffer from the residual effects of such violent segregation, which he calls ‘second-generation sundown towns.’”

I guess this material should be added to the entry in some fashion. Innisfree987 (talk) 17:58, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Feel free to be bold and make any addition you feel is required. Ckruschke (talk) 19:57, 19 January 2021 (UTC)Ckruschke

Thanks Ckruschke.  Done (but more could always help!) Innisfree987 (talk) 20:28, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I disagree with this. Present tense makes it sound confusing and someone who is only coming to be quickly informed without going into details will get the impression that sundown towns as they were before still exist. I see Innisfree987 has tried to improve it, which he did but not too significantly. How about adding something regarding their limited nature in the 21th century in the first paragraph? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB10:5DA:8400:DDED:3EFE:2A15:61C7 (talk) 20:32, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

In principle I’m fine with this but am still trying to find a good place in the lead to put it. I’m thinking something like, “Historically sundown towns were...” “... but some scholars and commentators have suggested the phenomenon continues...” Just not obvious where. Innisfree987 (talk) 19:20, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

How do towns get classified under the lists of sundown towns?

There is a running list of sundown towns across Wikipedia. My question is

1. Is this a list of towns that are currently sundown towns or towns that historically were sundown towns?

2. If it's the former, what qualifications must a town fit in order to make the list?

Thanks in advance for any answers or responses. Citrush0e (talk) 23:13, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Are you talking about Category:Sundown towns in the United States, which currently includes nine articles besides this one? Spot-checking a couple of them, I notice that they both have sources which have identified their subjects as sundown towns at some point in history. My guess would be that it's very haphazard and extremely incomplete and that something gets added to the list when an editor comes across a source meeting Wikipedia standards that identifies a municipality as a sundown town, and also decides to add the category.

Note that, as mentioned in this article, the Oregon black exclusion laws officially banned Black Americans from the entirety of Oregon for ¾ of a century mostly before SCOTUS-endorsed segregation, the Jim Crow Era, and the Civil Rights Era, but there's only one town from Oregon in the category. It's extremely easy to delete articles from a category and difficult for the average Wikipedia editor to monitor that activity, and Wikipedia does not for example even officially object to editors openly adhering to Nazism or other forms of white supremacy, and is not especially effective at preventing WP:PAID editing--such as a municipal government tourism employee or a PR firm--from doing things like deleting the sundown town categorization. So although I haven't been keeping an eye on it myself I'd be unsurprised if many towns even with lawsuits that have demonstrated them to be sundown towns in court have been removed from the category. --¿truthious ¹andersnatch ¡ |TEL| 07:13, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Before the 1950s, some towns were very open about being "Sundown towns", but not that many official documents seem to have survived. AnonMoos (talk) 08:30, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

present tense?

Are there any present-day sundown towns? The book doesn't claim that, does it? At least in the case of Edina, MN, blacks are not excluded anymore. Can you name any present-day sundown towns? Pfalstad 19:26, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

they totally still exist. http://www.uuworld.org/life/articles/90579.shtml -- 00:17, 19 December User:MariAdkins

That article's title is itself in the past tense ("Was your town a sunset town?"). It suggests methods for uncovering the uncomfortable history of a town, and the closest it comes to applying the term to the present day is

"Many residents of sundown towns ache to get beyond their tradition of exclusion. So long as their communities remain overwhelmingly nonblack, however, it is unclear whether African American families can prudently live in them."

"Every sundown town needs to be asked to do three things to overcome its past. First, it must admit it. Second, it must apologize for it. Third, it should state that it no longer discriminates, and then back that statement..."

and does not sound like it supports a statement that any town has been demonstrated to be continuing the open practice of "excluding non-whites via some combination of discriminatory local laws, intimidation, and violence", which is the statement the opening sentence makes it in the present tense. Wrong Oms (talk) 23:45, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

From the article:

Loewen, James William (2006). "Sundown Towns Today". Sundown Towns: A Hidden Dimension of American Racism. New York City: The New Press. ISBN 9781620974544. During the last few years while I have been doing the research for this book, many people have asked, after learning that hundreds or thousands of sundown towns and suburbs dot the map of the United States, "Still? Surely it's not like that today?"

When Black elected officials are getting threats like these we shouldn't have any trouble believing fans of just about any racist practice from America's past are a thriving community in 2020.

And, for example, exclusionary racial covenants in deeds, which almost always barred black citizens from owning a home but often extended to American Jews, Asian Americans, Mexican Americans, etc., are still widely present, and we have in fact just not bothered to even study their existence and distribution before recently. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 06:21, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

If these are still present, it is often because the State has declared them against public policy - that is, they have no legal effect. It is then not worth the bother of removing them; remember they are covenants, and cannot be removed without throwing the whole state legal system in the melting pot. That was why it was done that way. Also, some states did not allow them anyway.

It would be useful to have a state-by-state review of restrictive covenants, and what types have been declared against public policy. California has made such a declaration, I know. 2A00:23C7:E284:CF00:915F:2C1F:21C6:3216 (talk) 09:29, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

there is one in Cooke County Alabama. I don't have evidence of it and don't like editing wiki, but if anyone does it should definitely be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.79.164.218 (talk) 08:24, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Removed the list

I removed, wholesale, the list of sundown towns. As per WP:LIVING, among other things, we must be very careful with regards to these allegations. (Okay, the towns themselves aren't living, but hundreds of thousands of people living in them are.) MANY of the towns were almost completely unsourced. If there are solid, concrete sources for certain towns, you can hold them up as examples--but I think we should make sure we source everything pretty dang well. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 22:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:LIVING has no relevance, as the list was explicitly of historical sundown towns. — goethean ॐ 23:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Fine, WP:V is probably more appropriate. After reading it, I'd love to know the justification for the majority of towns listed. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 01:56, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, according to alot of anecdotal evidence cited in Loewen's book, Anna, Illinois was said to stand for "Absolutely No Ni***** Allowed" according to several residents. There is also evidence in the book of sundown signs in most of the cities. As for Vidor, Texas, if you look at the cnn article, it's pretty obvious that it was a sundown town. Matt, what exactly are you looking for? You are not going to find cities saying "We're a sundown town!". The evidence is either anecdotal or the "Don't Let the Sun Set On You" signs. If you're looking for concrete laws, you are not going to find them. I mean, the lynchings done in these towns and others weren't legal...neither was the sundown status in some of these towns. You just aren't going to find evidence beyond the signs and anecdotes along with evidence that shows the African-American populations of these cities and counties literally going from 300-400 to near 0 in a decade. --Woohookitty^(meow) 05:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, yeah, solid evidence would be hard to find. And without solid evidence, these claims can't go in... and I believe they shouldn't. Remember, the burden of proof lies with the one who wants the information in. And I will personally track you down and give you an ice cream sundae if you can come up with solid evidence on this. (Well, not literally, but maybe a picture of one on your talk page. ) I'm thoroughly unconvinced that the book's reliable--I mean, did you see the external link? All of Idaho was a sundown town? What?? Honestly, I'm not opposed to Vidor, etc., being labeled as such (CNN's a reliable source), but as for most of the others... I just would love to have more evidence before putting out this long list of claims stating that "such-and-such town once kicked out all black people at sundown every night and lynched whoever didn't leave". On a case-by-case basis, we could probably put things in. I'll let you respond before I edit again, but I think that until solid evidence comes in regarding the rest, WP:V demands that we take out the cities with only that not-too-credible book supporting them. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 05:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, you didn't edit war? Sweet! :) Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 05:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Nope, just added a link for Vidor. As for the book. Well. I've read it. I think some of it is very solid (especially the census data that shows these counties going from 300-400 African-Americans to 50 or 60 in a decade), but alot of it is spotty. But I think it's because as you said, it's hard to get hard eveidence on this stuff. Loewen even says in the book that he asked librarians if they held on to these signs for historical reasons and they basically laughed in his face. So yeah, I get your point (which is why I didn't edit war). Unless we have reliable evidence, specific cities probably shouldn't be listed. Vidor is good to list as an example city. It says it's reformed, but look at the demographics. :) 0.07% African-American. --Woohookitty^(meow) 06:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I would love love love if we could find a PD picture of one of the signs. I suspect we won't. --Woohookitty^(meow) 06:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Hint: research the 1940 campaign of Wendell Wilkie, GOP candidate for President. He had no use for sundown towns, and said so, but his home town of Elwood, in Indiana had that reputation. The supporters of Dem candidate FDR published lots of embarrassing interviews, antecdotes, and pictures. Some may be in the public domain.

Theodore Bilbo made the following statement in his 1947 defense of ‘scientific’ racism, “Take Your Choice“: “The late Wendell Wilkie, author of One World, was another of the nation-wide figures who advocated full racial equality. This position of Mr. Wilkie is especially interesting in view of the fact that he was born and reared in Elmwood [sic], Indiana, the town from which his father helped drive away every Negro, and which had signs reading "No Negroes Admitted Here" on every road leading into the city limits”

2A00:23C7:E284:CF00:915F:2C1F:21C6:3216 (talk) 09:36, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

do not remove

Do not remove the towns listed. The book sourced contains the info. Vidor, Texas is mentioned on page 276 as one of the places that "built national reputations as sundown towns." TimSPC 4:56 21 Oct. UTC

Tom Joyner

The text from this article was read almost verbatim on the Tom Joyner Morning Show Wednesday morning (3/22/2006). I thought it all sounded familiar.—This unsigned comment was added by 131.81.200.154 (talk • contribs) 23 March 2006.

Alameda, California?

On a recent visit there I heard that Alameda was a Sundown town. I was surprised to hear this... particularly because apparently the enforcement was a direct request from the U.S. Army until the early 1960s. (that late?) Also, of course, given the level of diversity on the San Francisco Bay Area. Any truth to this? Demf 15:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

As a resident of Alameda I can say with certainty that this is not true. 24.143.155.146 (talk) 01:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Were these documents standard boilerplate Restrictive Covenants, or was there a specific mention of sundown? AnonMoos (talk) 02:30, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

There were restrictive covenants in place in specific neighborhoods (such as Fernside) in Alameda, with clauses such as "No person or persons other than of the Caucasian race shall be permitted to occupy said property or any part thereof, or to live upon said property or any part thereof, except in the capacity of domestic servants of the occupant thereof." In the case of Fernside's HOA these clauses were removed in 1969. See "Alameda Is Our Home" by Rasheed Shabazz. --Hashashin (talk) 23:43, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Improving the Wikipedia Page

Hi, I'd like to improve this Wikipedia page. I plan on improving the Wikipedia page on sundown towns by adding information and appropriate citations to the sections on sundown suburbs, sundown towns in the 21st century, and sundown towns in popular culture.

SarahD12345678910 (talk) 20:59, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Citation 19

Citation 19 does not support the claim that "all black migration" was outlawed in Michigan, rather it specifies that proof of free-status be given, and a bond, one which would be extreamly difficult to pay be put up. Additionally the article discribes how these laws were never uniformly enforced. Something we should be unsuprised by as much oc the Midwest was a sparcely cover rural territory at the time, and the ability for the state to police the status of its black inhabitants was extreamly limited. 68.56.152.57 (talk) 14:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

"In the 21st century" section...

There are a number of issues with this section. It talks about "second-generation sundown towns," but doesn't give any sort of definition of what exactly constitutes one.

Furthermore, while the original definition of a "sundown town" was a community that had few or no non-White people, due to violence and intimidation to exclude them, the main example it gives of a (possible) "second-generation sundown city" is Ferguson, Missouri, which the same section informs us has a population that's more than three quarters Black, and that three quarters of the city council is also Black, so this hardly seems to be a community where Blacks are excluded.

Moreover, a section of the text of the article reads:

"A consent decree had prohibited racial profiling.[45] The terms of the consent decree prohibited activities that would categorize Ferguson as a second-generation sundown city. As of 2020, the consent decree has only been partially implemented, leaving Ferguson's status as a second-generation sundown city unclear.[46]"

But a simple word search reveals that neither citation 45 (the consent decree), nor citation 46 (the St. Louis Post-Dispatch article) mentions "sundown" at all, meaning that their inclusion is at best WP:Synth - i.e. Wikipedia connecting whatever definition of a "second-generation sundown town" some commentator has used with the analysis presented by the DoJ and Post-Dispatch, even though the latter two don't actually use the "sundown" label.

So either this section needs a complete rewrite, or it needs to be entirely eliminated. -2003:CA:871E:B1D:83E3:5F93:9CC9:B40D (talk) 16:10, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Update: The section also mentions issues in Chicago:

"In response to an increase in violent crime, Chicago enacted a 6:00 p.m. curfew for youths in May 2022 at Millennium Park.[47] The American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois said that the curfew would result in "unnecessary stops and arrests" of young black people, and Chicago Alderman Roderick Sawyer said that the curfew was "discriminatory" and would make black children feel that "they don’t belong in certain parts" of Chicago.[47]"

A quick text search of the AP article given as a citation though (#47) once again reveals that the article does not mention "sundown" at all, once again rendering the content WP:Synth. I've decided to be WP:Bold and go ahead and remove the parts of the section about Ferguson, MO and Chicago. Others are of course welcome to rewrite and/or expand this section if/when they find reliable sources which specifically discuss various modern day American communities as "sundown." -2003:CA:871E:B1D:83E3:5F93:9CC9:B40D (talk) 16:19, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your concern for avoiding synthesis of sources, and starting a discussion. But this set of issues has been previously discussed several times on this talkpage, with refs that it's still a phenomenon even today. A specific ref was even supplied that defines second-generation sundown town and says Loewen uses that label for Ferguson. So there's no synth for the general idea of that city being a second-generation sundown town as well as the way our article defines that concept. DMacks (talk) 18:09, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

With all due respect, none of the refs in the second two paragraphs of the section even mentioned "sundown," so this is a clear case of SYNTH. I had left the first paragraph, which does at least have refs discussing the concept. If you have a ref that uses the label specifically for Ferguson then it'd be reasonable to expand the section to note that some have made this claim, and to include a ref which specifically mentions Ferguson as an alleged example thereof. But for now I'm reverting your restoration of the completely unsubstantiated content.

I would also note that the section does not in fact provide any clear definition of what exactly a "second generation sundown town" is. To the extent one could be inferred, it would seem to be any locality where some sort of racial issue or another exists. -2003:CA:871E:B1D:83E3:5F93:9CC9:B40D (talk) 00:58, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

"discussed several times on this talkpage". See for example Talk:Sundown town/Archive 1#Present tense. DMacks (talk) 04:28, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

"Try That in a Small Town"

There is a content dispute about whether the song "Try That in a Small Town" by Jason Aldean, should be included in the "popular culture" section. My objection comes from the fact that nowhere in the song does it mention "sundown town", or make any reference to race. Two sources have been cherrypicked to support this edit:

• "Sundown Town", a non-notable parody song by Adeem the Artist.
• "Moms Demand Action", a non-notable advocacy group.

The input of other would be appreciated.

References

--Magnolia677 (talk) 18:08, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:NOTABILITY is about whether something can be the subject of a standalone article, not whether it can be written about in other articles. Adeem the Artist's song "Sundown Town" has coverage in secondary sources, and Adeem himself is notable and has an article.

I haven't read around for other sources on this, but based on the ones given in the article it may be better (and I've edited it as such) to frame the paragraph as Adeem the Artist releasing a song called "Sundown Town" in 2023, and giving some context for why he did that. Belbury (talk) 18:20, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Belbury: Adeem the Artist is notable; his song isn't. You are welcome to add the song to Adeem the Artist's discography, but just because a song is "about something", does not automatically mean it should be added to the article it is about. Should "If I Were a Fish" be added to the article Fish? --Magnolia677 (talk) 19:48, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Agree with @Belbury: the invocation of notability fundamentally misunderstands en-wiki content policy. This should be included as we have reliable secondary source coverage. Innisfree987 (talk) 23:24, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Innisfree987: What are your reliable sources to support that "Try That in a Small Town" is about a sundown town (the title of this article)? The lyrics don't mention "sundown town", and race is not mentioned anywhere in the song. Do you have a source that specifically states the song is in fact about a sundown town? Or just opinions from angry activists who don't like the pro-gun theme, and have responded by labeling the song as racist? --Magnolia677 (talk) 23:33, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

You keep trying to move the goal posts but Wikipedia policies are what they are. I don’t need to prove it’s about a sundown town. Reliably sources have seen fit to cover those opinions. Fin. Innisfree987 (talk) 02:29, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@Innisfree987: Again, please list your reliable sources to support that "Try That in a Small Town" is about a sundown town. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:17, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

The article isn't making that claim as a statement of fact. It's saying that some other people are quoted as describing it as that. This is reliably sourced. Belbury (talk) 10:28, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

The edit violates WP:WEIGHT, which states that "Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a 'see also' to an article about those specific views." In this case, the views of a non-notable advocacy group, and a non-notable parody song, have been included because another song--which does not mention race or sundown towns--is in their opinion actually about a sundown town. Moreover, this undue coatrack has been added to a section titled "Sundown towns in popular culture", despite not meeting the inclusion criteria listed at MOS:POPCULT. Please discuss. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:01, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT makes clear that reliable sources, not personal opinions of editors, are what determines the significance of a viewpoint. "Once it has been presented and discussed in sources that are reliable, it may be appropriately included." Likewise MOS:POPCULT: "A Wikipedia article may include a subject's cultural impact by summarizing its coverage in reliable secondary or tertiary sources." Innisfree987 (talk) 04:18, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

A cornerstone of our verifiability policy is WP:VNOT, which states "not all verifiable information must be included". In this case, a non-notable song, and a non-notable advocacy group, claim that Jason Aldean is racist, and their claim of racism is not based on anything measurably racist in the song he wrote. In the source cited to support the edit, it only claims, "This song is an ode to a sundown town, suggesting people be beaten or shot for expressing free speech". That isn't even what a sundown town is. Moreover, much of the criticism is that the song is "pro-lynching". To that Aldean stated, "There is not a single lyric in the song that references race or points to it – and there isn't a single video clip that isn't real news footage -and while I can try and respect others to have their own interpretation of a song with music- this one goes too far." Our WP:BLP policy sets a high standard for accusations of racism, and we must "be very firm about the use of high-quality sources". A parody song, and "Shannon Watts, the founder of the gun control advocacy group Moms Demand Action", are not high-quality sources. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:41, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

The reliable sources (currently cited) are Rolling Stone and the Seattle Times. More exist as well, like Variety and Paste Magazine. Surely you realize that on Wikipedia reliable sources refers to the outlet and not the people they cover. Innisfree987 (talk) 01:29, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Please note that I posted this discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Sundown town, and invited editors there to join this discussion. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:03, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

The song is race-baiting jingoism, that's undeniable. But the gist is saying you can't come from out-of-town and do the same things you do in the city and expect to get away with it. "Sundown town" is a reference to controlling one's own native, minority population. So, no, I think two allusions by non-notable individuals/groups do not amount to much. Zaathras (talk) 00:59, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

It’s not our place to give an interpretation of the song. The question is whether there is sufficient reliably sourced coverage of this point of view to include it. Innisfree987 (talk) 01:31, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Innisfree987, the "source" isn't the newspaper that published this, the source is the person being quoted by the newspaper. Again, WP:VNOT cautions that not everything published in reliable sources is encyclopedic. Magnolia677 (talk) 08:33, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

• Include - The proposed text is In 2023, Adeem the Artist released the song "Sundown Town" as a reaction to Jason Aldean's "Try That in a Small Town" receiving criticism earlier that month. Moms Demand Action had called Aldean's song "an ode to a sundown town". which seems to accurately summarize the connection that reliable sources have drawn. There are plenty of sources to establish due weight, most of which mention Moms Demand Action or Adeem the Artist: Variety, CBC, Newsweek, Forbes, CBS. A gentle reminder: We go by what reliable secondary topics say about the topic, not our own analyses or the artist's own explanation. –dlthewave ☎ 12:42, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
• Don't include the commentary is about "Try That in a Small Town". "Popular culture" sections are generally garbage, the one in this article is (rightly) tagged as one, and this is a good example of why. The information about the parody or the Moms Demand Action stuff belongs in the article about the song. One song in one year does not a notable factoid to mention in a much larger topic with a much larger temporal and cultural reach. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 19:22, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
• Include as long as this sort of "in popular culture" section is going to exist here. There are a ton of sources connecting the song to the idea of a sundown town, but most of them are about the parody song. Belbury's edit to make the bulletpoint about the parody, referencing the song, seems like a good way to do this. At this point, there's a good case for the parody song to be notable (although given WP:NOPAGE I'm not saying someone should create a stand-alone article about it), and a notable song about the subject seems sensible to include. My !vote shouldn't be presumed to preclude restructuring that section and setting stricter inclusion criteria, though. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:49, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - came from the NPOV board. This is what is described in the Essay WP:Recent. There is a controversy, there is a source, and editors place that controversy on every article that remotely touches on the subject. The news cycle blows over, it's removed from the main subject's article, but remains on a bunch of obscure articles it was added to that no one knows to go clean up. The guidelines we should be looking at are WP:EVENTCRITERIA. A release of a song or a parody song is an event. Is it going to have long lasting notability? Per WP:PERSISTENCE - is this going to have long-lasting coverage past one news cycle? Or it is "controversy of the week" and in two years, no one will care? And if I'm reading an article on Sundown towns, is that the kind of information I'm looking for? WP:Due and WP:Balance are also at play, and I'd say all these add up to "don't add it to this article". Denaar (talk) 15:50, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose for the same reasons as @Denaar, though with the note that if this is still a discussion in a month then it can be added. ~ Argenti Aertheri^(Chat?) 08:06, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
• Rewrite the entire section. Currently it's not clear which of these pop culture references are actually significant, but e.g. James Loewen's article "Sundown Towns on Stage and Screen" makes an interesting argument about the pop-cultural portrayal of sundown towns which would be much better treated in prose than the current random list. Having some sort of coherent prose narrative makes it much easier to judge which examples are in fact worthy of inclusion – and to help the section remain a coherent whole rather than a random assortment of examples without context. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:37, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Here from NPOVN. The primary reason for opposing is the weak nature of the association. A few sources that say the song evokes the notion of likeness of a sundown town is a weak reason to include it in a section that should be including obvious examples. Second, there is an issue of reciprocity of weight. Articles about the song or reactions to the song establish weight for inclusion at the song's article not here. To establish weight here we need significant coverage of this topic that mentions the song. Do we have that? Springee (talk) 14:45, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
• Include, but give better sources. Plenty of reliable sources criticised the song specifically for evoking the notion of sundown towns, among other things. It's basically the only reason the song is even notable. 46.97.170.235 (talk) 09:51, 16 August 2023 (UTC)