Talk:Neopanax colensoi

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Requested move 6 October 2024

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– WP:COMMONNAME and WP:FLORA - overwhelming usage within recent scientific papers, despite mixed use in taxonomic databases. Without a clear scientific basis for a preference of one name over the other, MOS:ENGVAR/MOS:TIES: that there is a clear consensus among New Zealand scientific sources for a clade of plants endemic to New Zealand.

Neopanax and Pseudopanax together form a clade. Currently there are three morphological forms of the species within this clade - two are always described as Pseudopanax, while one (the more basal form) is sometimes described as Neopanax and sometimes Pseudopanax. page 52 of this thesis has a useful graph showing phylogenetic relationships within the group. Neopanax was synonymised with Pseudopanax in the 20th century, re-established as a genus in 2004, but the justification of this was disputed in 2009. The distinction appears to be one based on conventions rather than a clear scientific justification (i.e. less based on whether or not Neopanax is a distinct clade within Pseudopanax, and more based on whether it's justified to use a different name for this clade, or to continue to use the pre-2004 convention). This issue was previously discussed at WikiProject Plants.
Different taxonomical databases use different preferred names. Pseudopanax is overwhelmingly used by New Zealand databases.
- Pseudopanax preferred: NZ Flora, Biota of New Zealand, IUCN, iNaturalist, NZOR and NZTCS
- Neopanax preferred: CoL, EoL, GBIF, IRMNG, NCBI, OTOL, POWO
Recent scientific sources outside of taxonomic databases overwhelmingly prefer Pseudopanax. Looking at Post-2020 Google Scholar results for species within the Neopanax clade:

Neopanax arboreus 6
Neopanax colensoi 3
Neopanax kermadecensis 0
Neopanax laetus 0
Neopanax macintyrei 1

Pseudopanax arboreus 150
Pseudopanax colensoi 29
Pseudopanax kermadecensis 3
Pseudopanax laetus 4
Pseudopanax macintyrei 2

Prosperosity (talk) 00:57, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we should be invoking commonname and engvar in regards to which scientific name to use. I don't see why mountain five finger shouldn't be the title in light of this disagreement over how to categorise it.

iNaturalist is not a reliable source also. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:42, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

de Lange et al in NZPCN say it's a mess because the combinations haven't been resolved for Neopanax and thus they retain in Pseudopanax until it's sorted out. This is the reason for the preference across the NZ databases quoted. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 09:20, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose both. Plants of the World Online uses Neopanax for both. YorkshireExpat (talk) 20:03, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]