Talk:Jonathan Baldwin Turner

Citations

It seems like this whole article only has one source? But as I look at the "reference" section, there are 3 more bullet points with books related to the topic, but no in-line citations. I'm posting here to ask if this is a mistake? If not, I'd like to edit it. But I'm not sure which information came from what as I haven't read any of these books (I'll look into it more if I don't get a response on this). MalB404 Ⓐ 🏴 (talk) 05:17, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Bias

In the 3rd paragraph on Turner's educational activism, it appears to be drawing a conclusion on the importance of of his activism on the implementation of Morril Land-Grant Acts. As I haven't read the books yet, I am unsure of whether that is the case. As before, I'll look into this more if I don't get a response. MalB404 Ⓐ 🏴 (talk) 05:17, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

I think you need to read>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Origin-Land-Grant-Act-1862/dp/B0096I0VZG. That means buy the book or go to the library. You also need to read The Life of Jonathan Baldwin Turner by Mary Carriel.Be sure to read front to back. You should read the many citations that I have listed....50 and see the view of very intelligent writers....deans of universities, professors, Principals, newspapermen, etc. To print a story in the newspaper is should be based on truth or the writer could be sued for libel. There are a many articles that mention what I see and that is a lack of attention to this man who lobbied for this very difficult idea. This is a whole piece of the process you need to learn about and study. Creative Lizzie (talk) 18:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Conflict of interest

A very large number of edits have been made by User:Creative Lizzie. In this edit she stated "I had cousin Robert, related to JBT, help me slick down the writing." - If her cousin is related, she is too, giving a clear COI. - Arjayay (talk) 20:06, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Arjayay.....I wish you would look for the good and how there is an excellent bio that I created. Somehow I think you are looking for what is wrong and not right. I wish you had a gentler approach. If you are so worried about this bio, I can take it down, start a book and that weak bio that was written for this man can be put up. You sound like a policeman and sometimes policing is too much and this is!! Put me in jail!! You are soooo lucky that this beautiful bio is in Wikipedia. I created all of this myself!!! Creative Lizzie (talk) 00:32, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

The Jonathan Baldwin Turner bio created by Wikipedia editors and I who working together hours creating this wonderful bio. It is a good one but many of the details on JBT's life which were accurate could be easily supported were deleted. These facts can be supported with unbiased documented historical facts. However, this is an above board honest presentation of a great American. Creative Lizzie (talk) 20:22, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

@Creative Lizzie I read that you wished to add an image of Osage Orange hedge to the page, but unable to do so as Wikipedia does not allow homemade illustrations. How does this image of Osage Orange hedge look for you instead? [1] Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 20:06, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi Sir Kenneth Kho! I thank you for your thoughts on this and an added thought. I am so pleased really how well this biography came out as a whole. House Blaster just did a sensational job with this and made it fit into Wikipedia. Since I had no skills for something like Wikipedia and couldn't even use the sandbox because of the font, I am amazed it came together. House Blaster and I really tried very hard to get a photo to Wikipedia for the Osage Orange. I have tried very hard to make connections throughout the Internet to get hold of a good picture here for this amazing plant that is still being used in many ways today as a lot of the hedges have become trees! Jonathan Baldwin Turner found the Osage Orange was a great plant which went through JBT'S experimental process. The prickliness of the fruit helped to contain animals within the hedge. This is the significant idea and one of things that JBT is most know for in Illinois and across the US. I wonder if you're from the UK but the thinking here right from England and how hedges had been used. A large part of the thought process here is lost with just the tree. I personally would've liked to see a hedge like plant with the fruit, but it was difficult to find and to use the photo of the hedge with fruit. Since there is a certain amount of illustration in Wikipedia and art interpretive works, I am sure I could've done and attractive scientific interpretation of this, but it was refused. I think the genius of Jonathan coming up with this well suited the situation of the prairie. I would like to add a few more thoughts on this bio at the moment. Another issue for me is a photograph of the plaque on the boulder at the bottom of the bio that is not really made making any sense as far as clarity or even thought. Both House Blaster and I tried very hard to get a good photograph of the plaque that was used to commemorate the speech at the 1851? Convention for the farmers. This is where Jonathan Baldwin Turner spoke on the idea of an industrial land grant University. This was easily 10+ years before Morrill presented the bill. As with all politicians etc. they like to take the full credit for a lot of things. But the true issue is ideas were in the works long before the bill. However, Morrill was in a wonderful legislator and I certainly admire his attention to the Industrial Land Grant University Plan. Being a teacher of 40 years retired, I know good and well how ideas grow from a seeds. One of the things I noticed is that Wikipedia is so strict that we also couldn't get a good photo in on the plaque, which could be clearly read. I believe there should be print underneath the plaque photo which explains with the words say. That seems simple enough. I just think it's good journalism. House blaster did everything he could within reason, but Wikipedia rules are just too strict to bring outside photos into Wikipedia.I think the original photographer with the better photo was very frustrated with how that process went down. I'm just giving you kind of an overview of my first experience with Wikipedia and current thoughts along with the tree photo. There also is one more issue for me with the word "challenge" used in the first paragraph in 2 different forms. That seemed a bit redundant to me as a creative writer. I'm sure there are some synonyms that could be used there. I certainly love Wikipedia and have used it for years. I am grateful for all the volunteers who so diligently give their time to this encyclopedia! Thanks for your interest and question! Creative Lizzie (talk) 20:54, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Creative Lizzie, the only reason Wikipedia has to remain strict is to effectively allow the landmark accomplishment of your great great grandfather to speak for itself, so we like to be succinct and don't feel the need for praise. The sourcing you provided are invaluable for truly developing this page, and HouseBlaster did an excellent job at ensuring high standards in this page, possibly promoted to good article status. I addressed the readability issues of the boulder. I don't see the word "challenge" in this page.

I like this image for being historic and a very neat hedge [2], and I like this image for appearing thorny [3] (I probably like this the best!) or [4]. It is difficult to find one with the fruit, as it is usually not the purpose when being used as a hedge tree. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 22:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

@Creative Lizzie I read that you wished to add due weight to Turner's role in the Land-Grant Act. I added that he led a political movement to create agriculture colleges as it is supported by the relevant page, but can't really say he is the father of the Act for the same reason that we can't say Morrill is the father of the Act. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 20:52, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the University of Illinois has that exclusive right to do so. What I am looking for is factual information. The speech at the Granville Convention is a great example of his thinking and is dated. When you look at the plaque on Wikipedia, it really says nothing to me. Hopefully, I will be able to get a release somewhere in the future for another photograph that both House Blaster and I worked very hard to get on Wikipedia. It is the tight boundaries of Wikipedia that make loading a photograph difficult. However, I do understand what's at stake but that's why a fuzzy plaque is there no explanation what it says. I think determining who's the father of what is probably a personal experience. After all the reading I've done, it is pretty clear that he is the father of the Land grant system, and Morrill is the father of the legislation! This is a personal view, and I understand that. JBT will always be the father in my mind. I am very pleased with what Wikipedia has done for a great man. I would've been just as passionate about my writing, even not being related.By the way, I am going to have a personal view of the Covid pandemic published by Amazon in 2024. This is where I get to express myself completely in my art so proud of Wikipedia experience too.:) Creative Lizzie (talk) 23:28, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I started out as a novice, and I'd really don't appreciate you going back in time to me emphasizing negativity with the unnecessary weight issue! I started with as a beginner and I did my best. Even as I progressed, I had to be educated as to not be so one-sided with the writing. I think we succeeded at this, and I have no idea why you had to bring it up again.??????? This is a quick way to discourage all beginners or someone trying to develop a piece. It was a perfectly natural thing to do as a an early Wikipedian as I didn't have the superb understanding that you have about Wikipedia. You should be happy that between House Blaster and I, we developed a good bio for Wikipedia. Wikipedians along the way have made it better! Prior to this it was a sad portrayal of a great man. How unnecessary it is to emphasize the mistakes I made! How challenging it was to put this bio together as a beginner. You don't need to emphasize your expertise and critical revival of this! Wikipedia seems to have its fair share of people quick to criticize. As for all volunteers, including yourself, it is best to give them praise for any effort and give positive support! It is really unnecessary to bring it up again. That quick criticism and pointing a finger is a turn off. As I said, I saw a strong focus on criticism and quick criticism with not much supportive thinking in the beginning. I have seen this be an issue with other people with various things I have read about Wikipedia. Be careful with this because it does discourages beginners and even someone who might want to come back and make another effort to improve an document in Wikipedia. Yes, the tree is OK but you don't know what I'm talking about as far as a hedge with fruit. The hedges grown over time into a tree and it was not the way it looked at the time when it was used on the prairie. Let's get this one straight, it is very difficult to find a hedge with fruit anymore. It would probably be more than likely that it's a tree heavy with fruit. I am thinking a bough of a tree, laden with fruit would resemble the hedge with fruit.This might give a feel of how it looked at the time it was on the prairie. I am an artist, and this is how I see things to possibly teach others. The redundant wording in the first paragraph of this bio was corrected and you do not need to do anything. It sounds much better. I do want to add that I like what you wrote about being succinct and you were absolutely correct on that. I appreciate you looking over the bio and making improvements that are good. I know Wikipedia has struggled with various issues in the past. There is no connection between challenge, and the Boulder plaque. The boulder plaque photo is just unreadable and not too many people would relate to the Granville convention by looking at it. I really am grateful that the bio looks so good as a whole. The great House Blaster was and is really key in making it look right! There will be no more responding from me on these particular issues. Creative Lizzie (talk) 05:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

@Creative Lizzie I don't know where I emphasized weight negatively, I informed you that I added appropriate positive weight for Turner in this edit [5], and changes to weight are described all the time in edit summaries and talk pages in Wikipedia. I also credited you for high-quality sourcing and thorough research.

I do hope the University of Illinois will grant the images of the Granville Convention, but for the tree, is there a source that the hedge in the prairie was full of fruits, because the modern ones don't seem to be that way. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 06:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Sir Kenneth Kho.... I may have been unduly harsh and understanding that of the comment that I added weight. I read that as I was biased towards my interpretation of JBT. I would say this might be whole total misunderstanding! So glad that you were positive because I've seen so much negativity. Thank you for recognizing the hard work that House Blaster and I put in to the article initially. I have a little fiery side like my 2nd ggf. The issue with the boulder is not with the University of Illinois. The boulder sits in front of a primary school and Wikipedia's strict regulations made it impossible to use the perfect photo that the principal took of the plaque! A great photo of a tree bough with fruit was available but could not be posted on Wikipedia.Thanks for your interest and help with this bio and Wikipedia! Creative Lizzie (talk) 16:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Review of March cleanup

I took note of several possibly notable phrases which were lost during cleanup and I will try to verify these in the next few days and make judgments on what I will do. See the last revision before major cleanup here [6].

I am not seeking comments at this moment, I am just writing here for future reference, here are the phrases (those NOT attributed to Lizzie are marked with asterisks):

pioneering public education in the united states*, requested a copy of the land grant plan, establishment of the university of illinois*, morrill had written a letter, first to admit people of color, early attention of young lincoln, close friends with, the election of lincoln, his farm was destroyed*, 20,000 pound boulder Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 09:26, 4 September 2024 (UTC)