Talk:First Rhodri Morgan government

Edit Request: 25/4/2018

This page is factually wrong. There were two Morgan Governments between 2000 and 2003.

The First was formed in Feb 2000 and was a minority Labour admisnistrtion. The Second, a coalition with the Lib Dems, wasn't formed until 16 October 2000 when there was a reshuffle. Peter Law left, Jane Davidson came in along with two Lib Dem cabinet members.

Overall there were five Morgan Governments:

2000 (Minority) 2000-03 (Coalition) 2003-07 (Minority with 30 then 29 seats) 2007 (Minority) 2007-09 (Coalition with Plaid)

Paulharding150 (talk) 09:48, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

References

Requested move 30 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 22:09, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

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• First Morgan government → First Rhodri Morgan government
• Second Morgan government → Second Rhodri Morgan government
• Third Morgan government → Third Rhodri Morgan government
• Fourth Morgan government → Fourth Rhodri Morgan government
• Interim Morgan administration → Interim Rhodri Morgan administration

– To avoid confusion with Eluned Morgan government DotCoder (talk) 10:02, 30 September 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:02, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Strong support per nom Kowal2701 (talk) 19:17, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose all and move Eluned Morgan government to Morgan government (2024). The most natural disambiguator and the shortest overall: no first names are needed in any article title and the 2024 government's article title is shortened as well. Nobody looking for "Interim Morgan administration" or "Third Morgan government" is trying to end up at Ms Morgan's. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:16, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The Eluned Morgan article has more pageviews than all the others combined, so should be the WP:Primary topic, although WP:Recentism is an issue here. I think the nom's solution is clear and intuitive Kowal2701 (talk) 19:02, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

That's not relevant to this discussion, even if it was the primary topic, which I strongly doubt: putting "Rhodri" in all these titles doesn't pertain to what you are saying. It just makes them needlessly long when there is no confusion there in the first place. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:35, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to look at the pageviews yourself, and it is of course relevant to discussion. I don't see why the current government should have disambiguator when it is the clear primary topic. Kowal2701 (talk) 21:03, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

If you don't see then you don't see, I suppose. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:29, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Or maybe you’re making a faulty argument that contravenes policy? Kowal2701 (talk) 10:04, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

There is no policy at all in the move request or your vote. I am arguing on WP:NATDIS, WP:PRECISE, WP:CONCISE and on the current consensus. There is no policy in "To avoid confusion with Eluned Morgan government" (there is no confusion: Ms Morgan has not had a second, third, fourth, interim or, by process of elimination, a "first" government) and there is no argument in your "vote" either: just nodding along with the defective move request. Saying Eluned Morgan's ministry is more historically significant than those of Rhodri Morgan is sheer rubbish as well: "pageviews" since August are nothing to go on to decide something like that. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 11:40, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Page views are how you decide WP:Primary topic? Think someone just wants to argue. Kowal2701 (talk) 13:29, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

You're entitled to think whatever you like. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:37, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

There has never been a name collision between First Ministers of Wales before. There has never been a name collision between First Ministers of Wales before. There has never been a name collision between Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom before. The consensus page you linked doesn't really refer to making this kind of distinction.

"First Morgan government (1999-2003)" (35 characters) is actually longer than "First Rhodri Morgan government" (30 characters) so I think conciseness is actually an argument in favour of "First Rhodri Morgan government" DotCoder (talk) 13:50, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

This is all WP:CRYSTALBALL. Whoever closes the discussion will decide whether Welsh Labour getting the most seats in the next Assembly is something they need to stress over when weighing consensus. At the moment, "Interim/First/Second/Third/Fourth Morgan government" is still shorter than "Interim/First/Second/Third/Fourth Rhodri Morgan government", where there is still no conflict with Eluned Morgan's government article. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:37, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

You cited conciseness, and your suggested alternative is less concise. That at least is not crystal-ball-related. DotCoder (talk) 16:49, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes it is: it would only be longer in the case of a Labour government being formed in 2026. That is outside the realm of this move discussion and is still not at all a reason to add "Rhodri" to all these article titles. Can we bring the discussion back to that (what you are actually proposing)? Tim O'Doherty (talk) 19:28, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Your alternative suggestion was to move Eluned Morgan government to Morgan government (2024).

According to the naming scheme you gave below, in 3 months, this would have to change to Morgan government (2024-2025), which uses more characters than Eluned Morgan government, which makes it less concise. DotCoder (talk) 20:37, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I have never proposed that title. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:57, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Your first message in this thread starts with the following quote:

>>>Oppose all and move Eluned Morgan government to Morgan government (2024). DotCoder (talk) 23:33, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

• Originally you stated you preferred that you also preferred Morgan government (2004) for Eluned Morgan government for the moment
• You stated you preferred First Morgan government 2000–2003 for First Morgan government, if Labour won the next Senedd election. I am interpreting messages in good faith so that you really meant First Morgan government (2000–2003) if Labour were to win the next Senedd election
• Applying this logic back to Morgan government (2024) means it would change to Morgan government (2024–2025) in three months.
• You have also said ***there is no confusion: Ms Morgan has not had a second, third, fourth, interim or, by process of elimination, a "first" government*** but you have also suggested a change in the title of Eluned Morgan government, which implies you do think there is something confusing about the naming of these articles
• You have also referred to the "next Assembly", which is an outdated term, which I will in good faith, read as the "next Senedd"
• You have also refused to engage with how Presidency of George Bush, Presidency of George H.W. Bush, Presidency of George W. Bush, Presidency of Barack Obama, Presidency of Bill Clinton are named, where additional name details are added to the title to naturally disambiguate to avoid referring to years, but I will interpret that in good faith.
• You have referred to the current consensus (Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom/Ministries), but you haven't been able to refer to any specific ministries, because this has essentially never happened before: a name conflict between two prime ministers or first ministers, but I will interpret this in good faith.

DotCoder (talk) 09:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Originally you suggested

> Eluned Morgan government to Morgan government (2024).

Which suggests that there is a conflict in your mind.

Have you changed your view? DotCoder (talk) 17:02, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

All of those policy reasons are the reasons to change the first government. The reason to change the second, third, fourth, and interim is WP:TITLECON. The titles for Rhodri Morgan governments should be consistent. Flatthew (talk) 14:00, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Also this was uncivil. Wikipedia needs less of this sarcy nonsense. Kowal2701 (talk) 13:35, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

If Eluned Morgan continues to be First Minister of the Senedd after the 2026 election, what would the article name be?

Morgan Government (2026)?

To me it makes much more sense for that one to be "Second Eluned Morgan Government". DotCoder (talk) 11:36, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTALBALL: but per the current consensus would likely be numbered by years, so "First Morgan government 2000–2003", "First Morgan government 2024–2026", "Second Morgan government 2003–2007" and "Second Morgan government 2026–202X". It still doesn't explain why these, the Rhodri Morgan articles, need to be moved, which is what you need to convince people of. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 11:46, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

What "current consensus" are you referring to? DotCoder (talk) 12:12, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

For another example, Presidency of George Bush disambiguates the 2 separate presidencies of George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush.

The pages are not pages titled Presidency of George Bush (1989-1993) and Presidency of George Bush (2001-2009) DotCoder (talk) 12:21, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

These articles should be moved to maintain consistency? Articles that are related should be named consistently. I don't see why "Second Morgan Government" couldn't redirect to "Second Rhodri Morgan Government" for the time being, but if people are looking for multiple, they will expect them all to follow the same naming pattern. Flatthew (talk) 13:53, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Support per nom. Also very much concerned about the unequity of any other solution. Seems the only fair way to manage these overlaps to me. It would be appropriate to have redirects for the "Second Morgan Government" -> "Second Rhodri Morgan Government" etc., but I think those should be the page titles. Also seeing points about concision, but Rhodri and Eluned are both more concise than adding years. I'm unclear as to how this has become such a battle. It's the most clear, concise, and user friendly way of disambiguating, and multiple pages in a series (Pages on Rhodri Morgan governments) should clearly follow the same naming convention, and therefore all be "Rhodri Morgan Government"s Flatthew (talk) 13:47, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes: the point of the move request was to eliminate "confusion" with the 2024 government (even though it is that, just a government, and not an interim, first, second, third or fourth one). If "Second Morgan government" etc were to redirect back to their new titles that would rather undermine the entire rationale for the moves in the first place. The other option, of course, would be to transfer them to disambiguation pages, which would be nonsense upon stilts given that Eluned Morgan has never had an interim, first, second, third or fourth government, so they would only ever contain one page. This move request overall appears remarkably ill-thought-through, with the process seeming to be "there's another FM called Morgan now, we need to change all the other titles to longer versions of themselves even though they're already naturally disambiguated by being numbered, with the new one also so by being prefixed with 'Eluned'". Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:10, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

They aren't really disambiguated though.

"First Morgan government" without further specificaation can refer to both the first Rhodri Morgan government, or the first and so far only Elunedd Morgan government.

Confusingly, your original proposal was to change Eluned Morgan government to Morgan government (2024), which would imply that you think there is some confusion in the current arrangement, but now you say that there is enough disambiguation in the current situation. You have so far not explained when you changed your mind, so it is hard to read your previous posts, without further clarification. DotCoder (talk) 22:09, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.