Talk:Eden Golan/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Removing the origin section until there is consensus here - this is a BLP issue

Per WP:BLP the infobox should not put forward a highly contentious claim while we are discussing it. Per that policy, I am removing it for now, and there needs to be a proper process of discussion here before it is added back - if it is. (I personally highly doubt it will remain, but that's for a discussion.) Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll further note that the issue of ambiguity of the "origin" parameter is well-known and a discussion has been started here about potentially changing it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:36, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

@Jimbo Wales I've got no idea what's going on here and why this has become such a critical issue. There must be some sort of ulterior motive at play, but for the life of me, I can't imagine what it is. Why is it so critical for some that she be labelled as Russian Israeli and not just Israeli? If you find out, please enlighten me. MaskedSinger (talk) 15:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Jimbo Wales also we could be stuck in a Terminator like loop here.

For instance, if you look at the article on 11 March, she's described as a Russian-Israeli singer. There's no source for that. So when the Eurovision was happening, journalists came to this article, saw she was described as Russian Israeli, described her as such in their article and John Connor was born. MaskedSinger (talk) 16:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 May 2024

Change Russian-Israeli singer to Latvian-Israeli singer.

Her father is Latvian, and not Russian, they only lived in Russia for a while before moving back to Israel. Making Eden a high likely holder of dual citizenship of Latvia and Israel.

Keeping in mind, if Eden is Russian and a carrier of dual Russian citizenship as mentioned from other edits, she wouldn’t be able to enter the EU, as there’s limitations on Russian passport holders or even as dual citizenship when it comes to entry into the EU.

Eden’s full family tree has been published on the Jews of Latvia page. 2A03:EC00:B1A2:3F73:948E:8C68:DC74:3F9 (talk) 04:29, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Eden explicitly stated in a recent interview with Mako.co.il that she is not Russian. It couldn't be more clear: "Some say I'm not Israeli enough and call me Russian, but I'm the most Israeli there is," She emphasized, "... there was always this part that 'I'm 'Eden Golan', I'm not Russian and I'm not part of them, I'm Israeli." [1] Gardenchef19 (talk) 04:47, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not see any good reason to put her as Latvian, seeing only one of her parents is Latvian (her mother being Ukranian). We also cannot speculate on any dual citizenship page, especially not on a BLP page. It has already happened multiple times that a low quality source on her citizenship has been removed. Besides it is unclear (at least to me) if her dad has had the Latvian nationalty, or whether Latvian refers to his ethnic background.

The Facebook page does not seem to cite any sources, and random Facebook accounts are not reliable sources.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 08:08, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Can we please collect all sources relating to her nationality?

I think it would be very helpful if we can bring together all the sources - reliable sources in particular - relating to her nationality. We have a good source from her saying quite clearly that she is not Russian and does not identify as Russian. I think some sources casually call her Russian but those passing references probably are not good enough to contradict her own very specific and public claim otherwise. There's a fair amount of banter about her parents being from Latvia or Ukraine - but are there sources for that which would shed more light on the issue? Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:57, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I've butted out from the discussion because at a certain point you get tired of reading seventy-squandillion comments per day from Twitter users brigaded to this page, on why everyone who edits this page is an agent of some foreign government or otherwise bigot, but I'll say Speederzzz has done a superb job of collating them in section 8 of this talk page. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 17:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I think with the current restart of the debate and the end of eurovision it would be good for me to update the list of sources with more recent sources (which, considering the booing she received and the criticism the Israeli delegation has gotten for their conduct, I assume are plentiful).

I have an important meeting tomorrow, so I am unsure if I can update it then, but I think before the weekend I should be able to expand the current list to incorporate post-eurovision sources.

Would it be preferable to readers if I simply update my list, make a new one and reply to my old list or make a new section?

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 22:02, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Given the mess on the talk page (from twitter brigading, as noted) a new section might be advisable, with that updated list. Do you read Hebrew? I can look at Hebrew sources using Google translate, but it's hard to find them.

I think one relevant thing would be whether there are reliable sources regarding the nationality of her parents, which add a lot of information to the situation.

Here's an entirely different scenario - we used to refer to Hilaria Baldwin as Spanish-American and even said in the Infobox that she was born in Mallorca. And no wonder as many sources [2] [3] [4] said so. So, early press mentions calling Eden Golan "Russian-Israeli" don't necessarily determine the matter, especially she is herself quite clear that she is not Russian at all. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I sadly do not speak Hebrew, I used to be able to transliterate it, but that is a long time ago. If there is a hebrew speaker (and perhaps a russian speaker for the other side of the bar) who would be able to help that would be great.

My biggest fear about the whole situation is that perhaps some citogenesis is going on, as you seem to insinuate. I of course have no proof of that, although as a last resort I could try contacting some writers of "Russian-Israeli" articles to check. Been a bit hesitant to mention it in case it starts a whole new discussion and derails the talk page even more.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 18:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Russian citizenship

She has Russian citizenship according to the Times of Israel, Russia Today and Euronews. [5] [6] [7] This is a universally accepted fact, so why have you removed this without any sources to back up your claim that she doesn't? @Zohariko1234: Makeandtoss (talk) 08:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss I cited an interview for Ynet where she explicitly says she doesn't have Russian citizenship. Shouldn't she herself be the premier authority on this? She is certainly a more reliable source on the subject than some state owned outlet like RT. Zohariko1234 (talk) 09:13, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Not really, there is an obvious self-interest in hiding one's citizenship. You can elaborate that she has stated so in the body, but to remove the sourced information that she does indeed have Russian citizenship from the body and the lede (as cited by European, Israeli and Russian media) without providing a RS that does not explicitly negate the claim, is not the best way in my opinion. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

there is an obvious self-interest in hiding one's citizenship - spot on. WP:MANDY feels incredibly applicable here.... ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 13:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I assume that by linking to a humorous essay you are only joking, but just in case let it be said that it's not appropriate for us, as Wikipedians, to judge that someone is lying based on it being in their self-interest to do so. (In this case, even that seems like a wild stretch.). We do, however, judge the quality of sourcing, and RT as a source is extremely dubious as a state-sponsored propaganda outlet.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

My comment is indeed intended to be humorous and I have no disagreements on the reliability of RT, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility given the other country in the discussion here were booted from the competition she participated in. Given the cloud under which that happened, people would respond poorly to that. Not a question of judgment and not impacting my votes which have been based on the convincing arguments of others, of course. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 18:49, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Can you clarify how you see she has Russian citizenship? Is it the "Russian-Israeli" designation? I'm personally unsure if that is enough to include citizenship but I could be wrong. RT is considered not reliable so there is no use in bringing it up (on top of that there is the fact most europeans cannot visit the website).

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 12:18, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Speederzzz: Indeed, the Russian-Israeli label is a clear indication of dual citizenship according to standards of ToI and Euronews. As for RT it explicitly states: "who holds dual Israeli-Russian citizenship". Despite RT's unreliability this just shows that this information is universally accepted as fact. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I would say that RT's unreliability specifically doesn't show it is an accepted fact, simply because RT has lied/misrepresented in the past.

This next part isn't meant as suspicion but probably just my own incompetence: Where did you find the standards of ToI and Euronews? Because I can't find one for the ToI and the Euronews one is mostly vague languages like "we will represent all sides of the story fairly" and such.

I think we need some pretty indisputable statement of her citizenship to counter her own words, even if there are reasons to doubt her personal statement.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 14:45, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Speederzzz: RT has no interest in lying about some random singer's citizenship status. Nor does an Israeli or European news sources. ToI and Euronews and media generally refer to people exclusively using their citizenship status. Furthermore, taking an interview, a primary source, reading her denial in it and then using it as fact without commentary from a secondary source, is also original research. We have no RS saying otherwise and this fact should not be disputed by OR. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:14, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I am unsure if "generally refer to" is strong enough in this case. Barred nationalities (Albanian-American, Moroccan-German, Dutch-Suriname) do not always refer to nationality in the media. Assigning a citizenship that could cause negative attention (thanks to the war) without indisputable evidence might bring negative attention to Wikipedia.

I would say that RT has a reason to claim her as Russian, since countries often like to claim popular figures as theirs. A symbol of their cultural impact so to say. Unsure if that is what is happening. Honestly don't care, RT isn't reliable so the whole discussion is kinda useless. (But if I didn't have useless discussions, I would have to fill my free time with something else :P)

So yeah, generally I'm extra cautious because of BLP and because if the vagueness/multiple uses of barred nationalities.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 17:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Neither ToI nor Euronews mention citizenship, they refer to "The Russian-Israeli star/singer". There is no reason to suppose they are not referring to ethnicity and/or career beginnings - (one can be a Russian singer, without being a Russian). I can't access RT, so don't know how explicit it is, but that is hardly a reliable source anyway. Pincrete (talk) 04:41, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello, my name is Eddie and I am the father of Eden Golan.

This entire issue is simply outrageous! Eden, like the rest of the family, does not and has never had Russian citizenship! Never! Our whole family and Eden are all Israeli citizens! We lived in Russia due to my work and had visas! Neither we nor Eden had Russian citizenship!

We have already contacted the editors of this site several times, the issue was corrected, and yet someone there keeps bringing this misinformation up again and again! Enough already! We're fed up! Don't the editors who keep writing this nonsense have anything better to do? Don't you have more important things to focus on? How many times do we need to correct you and you keep at it! Enough is enough!

I am once again making it unequivocally clear: Eden is an Israeli singer! She does not have Russian citizenship and has never had Russian citizenship! The fact that Eden lived in Russia for a few years does not make her Russian or a holder of Russian citizenship!

Is this finally clear to you now?! 147.235.146.145 (talk) 21:05, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

opening rfc regarding "russian"

Sibce @Tataral insist to put Russian and since the majority is against, I suggest to open rfc about the subject. 46.116.251.199 (talk) 08:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Archiving

The talk page guidelines suggest starting archiving above 75 KB, we are currently at 126,5 KB. Is there someone willing to set up a bot to archive some of the dormant discussions from the beginning. I am not confident enough to attempt it myself and possibly make a big mess here haha

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 12:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Done, 45 day timeline, should be picked up in the next few days. Mdann52 (talk) 06:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks!

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

She is not Russian

As you can learn from her name, she is not Russian. Her name is very Israeli. She defines herself as Israeli. She was born in Israel. She only has Israeli citizenship. Hebrew is her first language. Her family origin is from Lithuania and Ukraine, not Russia. Her father (and previously her grandfather) worked in Russia. Therefore she lived with her family in Russia, yet keeping her Hebrew name, despite antisemitic experiences she went through. So what makes her Russian? The fact that she had to immigrate there as a child? The fact that she made a living as a singer in Russia on a variety of TV platforms certainly does NOT make her Russian.

There is a much more distinct case. The singer Tamer Nafar is an Israeli citizen. He lived his whole life in Israel. He only has Israeli citizenship and no other. Speaks great Hebrew. He even live in "Israeli Heroes" street (רחוב גיבורי ישראל). However, he is not defined as an "Israeli rapper" but as a "Palestinian rapper". Not even as an "Israeli Arab" or "Israeli-Palestinian". Just Palestinian. This absurdity exists, only because he defines himself as Palestinian. He does not have Palestinian citizenship. He never lived in the Palestinian Authority (which is very close to his home). He simply chooses to live in Israel, and calls himself Palestinian. Nafar's self-determination is not more important than Golan's. Otherwise its just a bias. Pacifico (talk) 23:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Well said! There is clearly something else at play here. MaskedSinger (talk) 05:38, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I personally don't think necessarily is something nefarious going on, I've seen similar problems come up in the past on BLP pages. Usually there are two camps, those that believe we should respect the wishes of living people and those who believe some sort of objective knowledge/truth must be given priority over the personal requests of the subject. Sometimes it's just people with a specific interpretation of the rules, sometimes it is the personal belief of someone that they believe they can support with Wikipedia's policy. There are certainly situations of bad faith, I have seen those reading talk pages before, but I think a large part of the desire to describe her as Russian-Israeli can be put down to the fact that many sources have described her like that.

I don't think it will help to solve the current conflict to be so suspicious of other editors and it might feel to pro-"Russian-Israeli" editors like you are casting WP:ASPERSIONS.

(Also do we have to start a new topic every time a new editor finds this page, we now have about 12 topics on the same question, which feels a bit silly)

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

@Speederzzz Please explain to me why anyone would be so invested in this? So adamant she is Russian-Israeli as opposed to Israeli? You say there are 2 camps but here they are one and the same - her wishes equalss the objective truth. And I've already said here above, it's not many sources, it's the same source many times. What most likely happened is that writers came here, saw her described as Russian Israeli and then referred to her as such in their piece. There are your sources.

Sure there can be debate about the facts and how they should be presented, but put this to the side and ponder why some are so insistent she be described as Russian-Israeli? What's in it for them? Clearly there's something otherwise there wouldn't be 20 threads about it on the talk page trying to get common sense to prevail. What exactly is going on here but more importantly, why? MaskedSinger (talk) 08:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I can't speak for anyone else and I don't like to speculate, but people really do get way to emotionally involved with random Wikipedia articles and certain edits. I believe I read an Essay on it but I can't find it. There should be no reason why I am at this article, I boycotted Eurovision (one day The Netherlands will have its revenge) but I'm still here.

I genuinely think that the people who argue that it should be Russian-Israeli believe in the points they make. I think they feel that they are supported by RSs (and believe the recent "Israeli" sources are simply only pointing to citizenship or the country they represented).

Wikipedians aren't always 100% rational people, I certainly am not. So I think it is best to be civil and let the process work itself out (or help it a little bit). I hope something comes out of the BLP noticeboard brings something useful.

It could also be that I just miss context, so have any of the "Russian-Israeli" editors crossed paths with you before on this sort of topic? Is this a larger trend? What would they have to gain if they tried to push this without actually believing it to be right? What do you think the alternative goals would be?

You don't have to answer, of course, I just feel like you are very suspicious and I don't fully get it. But you don't owe me an explanation! I'm just trying to understand the conflict.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 12:20, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

its some sort of WP:ADVOCACY] but what for - i couldn't tell you. Whenever there are disputes, I don't look at the what, I try to understand the why. And I just don't get it. What does making her Russian achieve? Who gains from this? Russians? People who are Anti-Israel? Not clear whats to gain from this. We can go round and round in circles, but what she herself should have the final say. MaskedSinger (talk) 16:41, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, after reading more stuff on BLP problems and thinking some by myself, I think it is important to respect people's wishes, especially on the front of self-identification. Without a Russian citizenship, the Russian-Israeli connection seems to mostly be due to being identified with Russia rather than as Russian. In that case I think it not very fair to favour some sources over others (or interpreting sources in a certain way) to identify her as something she doesn't want.

Purely because I can't think of a nefarious reason to do it, I think it's not an agenda. Wikipedia has a lot of rules, and you can often argue many points through interpreting the rules in one way or another. There was a time when I was leaning more towards Russian-Israeli but it wasn't because I had it out for her. I simply thought that that was the appropriate text, supported by arguments and sources. (I wasn't very confident in my opinion so I tried not to argue too hard for one or the other position)

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 16:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Since October 7, wikipedia has been out of control. Frightening reflection of the world we live in. MaskedSinger (talk) 20:18, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

lets be honest. There is a majority against classifying her as russian, but @Tataral insist to put the Russian.

He also falsely claims that there is a consensus for duch claims. This is all the while he should know there is no. 46.116.251.199 (talk) 04:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

There is clearly some canvassing going on, probably via social media. We can't have the same debate each time an IP sees something on Twitter or Facebook and complains here, without contributing any policy-based arguments. It has been clearly demonstrated that she is described as Russian-Israeli by reliable sources and that her connection to Russia (including professionally) is at least as strong as her connection to Israel, where she moved one and a half years ago. --Tataral (talk) 01:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you think that if you keep repeating something over and over again, it might come true? MaskedSinger (talk) 04:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

@Tataral, as usual you ignore from the fact that many sources also describe her only as Israeli.

You also ignore from the fact that she was born in Israel and not in Russia. You also ignore from the fact that none of her parents are Russians. 46.116.251.199 (talk) 05:49, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Just to support your canvassing statement, some time ago I came across this: [8] A reddit threat about this page. It's old now, but it definitly shows there has been attention to it outside of Wikipedia.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:57, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Well I have not seen anything outside Wikipedia regarding this page.

The attention is mainly due to eurovision.

Also there is nothing in the link that is canvassing.

Anyway, currently there is vast majority against calling her Russian and we have tataral that force his opinion 46.116.251.199 (talk) 10:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

The canvassing thing isn't even in dispute at this point. All through Eurovision posts like these went up accusing us of every form of bigotry/hidden agenda under the sun for... using an infobox category. Now that's seeped onto the talk page with nuclear-level awful faith accusations of "tormenting", and that editors on this talk page are "closet antisemites" or involved in this discussion for some sort of nefarious reason. Comical. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 11:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

It is better you respond to the rfc. 46.116.251.199 (talk) 06:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)