Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anthroponymy

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Draft:List of given names derived from fiction

Draft:List of given names derived from fiction started as a conversion from a category that was deleted. It's just been rejected at AfC. I had given it citations from most of the linked articles on the given names, but Asilvering judged that they were not in-depth, reliable, secondary or independent. It still strikes me as a list worth having – would anyone here like to work on it? – Fayenatic London 09:56, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

It will only lead to eternal bickering. Would "Adam" or "Eve" be an acceptable entry in this list? Fram (talk) 10:27, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm sure many of the sources are in-depth, reliable, secondary, and independent. The problem is they're not about the topic of the list - names first invented for fictional characters - but rather about individual names on that list. -- asilvering (talk) 06:44, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Asilvering: perhaps the template that you used should be revised, or tailored where it generates inappropriate descriptions of the issues.

I chose the sources as they confirm the criteria for inclusion in the list, i.e. that the name was invented in a work of fiction.

At least "Should You Name Your Baby Anakin? The Rising Popularity of a 'Star Wars' Baby Name" (Yahoo! Entertainment) and "So You Named Your Kid Daenerys. How's That Feel Now?" (New York Magazine) also address the topic of the list. The latter is about the dilemma of naming a child after a character in a current television series before it is known how the character finally turns out. – Fayenatic London 21:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I would say that the template used does accurately describe the issue - there are no in-depth, reliable etc sources about the topic of the article. That NYMag article is, for example, entirely about people who named their kid Daenerys. -- asilvering (talk) 23:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The problem with the list is that it is an "arbitrary" invention of Wikipedians: I suspect there are no serious sources that discuss this type of names, not just individual names. Although I do find this list interesting. - Altenmann >talk 17:02, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I would simply have created the article with the sources you found, instead of submitting it to AfC. However, I think that if you did that now, someone would immediately nominate it for deletion, simply because some people don't think it should exist. I don't find there to be a problem with creating a list of things that can be individually documented using reliable, independent sources, just because you don't have a source that discusses such a list. That seems like formalism, perhaps pedantry. The list isn't "arbitrary" as long as it has reasonably clear criteria for inclusion: at least one reliable source has to state that a particular name was invented or at least popularized by a particular work of fiction (and not be clearly mistaken about this, in which case the source would not be reliable for that point). I would not include mythology under the heading of "fiction"; Adam, Eve, and other figures in the Bible do not have names coined by an author in the sense of this list. "Stella" can be included even though it's just Latin for "star", if nobody was using it as a name prior to said fictional use. If you can find any sources that would help overcome the objections of the other editors, you should probably use them to create the list instead of relying on someone else's judgment as to whether such an article should exist. P Aculeius (talk) 00:12, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I am old to remember history: this rule you are calling "like formalism" was in response to a flurry of articles List of songs about New York, List of songs about weather, List of songs about suicide, List of songs about tequila (my fav :-), List of songs about love, ad inf.... See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of songs about weather. --Altenmann >talk 05:22, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not referring to a rule. I'm referring to an argument that isn't a rule, and which didn't carry the day in the linked discussion. That 2007 discussion was closed without consensus, and it consisted entirely of lists of songs about various subjects, some of which still exist, though you wouldn't guess either of those things from your post. There isn't a rule stating that lists of things can't exist unless a reliable source describes them as a specific class of things. The main argument against including the various lists of songs was that they constituted indiscriminate collections of data, although a careful reading of WP:NOT provides only examples that are inapposite to that situation.

I would say that nothing useful can be drawn from that discussion here, because A) it is a very old discussion about a very different topic; B) the result was inconclusive; C) the principle argument was not the one being made here. Here the question is whether a list of personal names that appear to have been invented (as names) for works of fiction, only to become accepted and used as names by the general public, is sufficiently distinct as a topic and relevant to the subject of anthroponymy to remain an article. If it is, then this strikes me more as a "you don't have to cite that the sky is blue" situation: you don't have to cite that the contents of a list of things—all of which obviously fit the criteria to be in that list—constitute a list of those things.

If the phenomenon of invented names becoming popularly regarded as legitimate names to give people is itself noteworthy—and I think it is—then a list of such names is fair game for Wikipedia, although it could perhaps be merged with an article about that phenomenon, if one exists or is created. A stand-alone list would be suitable if the two together become too large to maintain as a single article. But for the time being, that may provide an "out": I'm sure there must be some sources discussing invented names in general, with or without a list. Such an article would surely be encyclopedic, and this list could be merged with it. P Aculeius (talk) 12:29, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

ancestry.com

It looks like ancestry.com introduced a paywall that blocks even the "Surname Meaning" sections (by blurring) (although it is snatched from Dictionary of American Surnames for all surnames). I guess we all have to borrow the book. - Altenmann >talk 17:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• I believe it can be accessed through The Wikipedia Library. There's also Oxford Reference although it partially blocks out many definitions. AllTheUsernamesAreInUse (talk) 19:14, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Yes, I see Ancestry in WPL partners. I established an access to https://www-ancestryinstitution-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/ but failed to find AHD. I did find "A dictionary of English and Welsh surnames"; it suggests "View Image" (of a page), but image links were not clickable for me. --Altenmann >talk 19:32, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Yi (Chinese surname)#Requested move 13 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Yi (Chinese surname)#Requested move 13 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 06:51, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Xu (surname 徐)#Requested move 13 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Xu (surname 徐)#Requested move 13 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 06:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kim (surname)

Ther is a discussion regarding Kim (surname) that may be of interest to this project. Best, -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 23:03, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Anthroponymy of formerly enslaved Africans in the Americas

This topic is missing from the discussion 83.42.143.2 (talk) 06:48, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Is this topic is discussed in literature? --Altenmann >talk 21:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Template talk:Infobox Chinese/Japanese#Requested move 31 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Template talk:Infobox Chinese/Japanese#Requested move 31 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 22:18, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Template talk:Infobox Chinese/Japanese#Requested move 31 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Template talk:Infobox Chinese/Japanese#Requested move 31 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Frost 16:52, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:APO/S applicability

Can someone help me determine if the list of names at Chinese people in Korea#Notable people would fall under the scope of the standards listed at WP:APO/S, or should I be looking for another standard that is more specific for these type of articles?

At present list is an unreadable disaster that I'd really like to clean up but I want to make sure there isn't another standard for these type of embedded lists.

My main questions would be:

• Should entries on the list who do not have their own Wikipedia article be removed? My assumption would be that if they don't meet WP:NOTABILITY, they're not qualified for a "notable people" list.
• What's going on with the "(Originally from)" parts? I haven't seen that in any other "notable people" list... seems like unnecessary information.
• Specifically for the band members section, when one band has multiple members that would be included in the list, should they each have their own entry in the list? Right now everything listed per group, not per person.

RachelTensions (talk) 12:54, 26 September 2024 (UTC)