Wikipedia talk:In the news/Archive 113

Archive 110

Archive 111

Archive 112

Archive 113

Why is Kasia Niewiadoma still up on In the news?

Kasia Niewiadoma was posted on 20 August and still there 10 days later

Sid has a point, "Justice will be served!"

I don't know if this is the right place to ask this, but why is Kasia Niewiadoma still up on ITN? Her win has been up on ITN since August 20th. It's been 10 days. I don't think it's difficult to remove her, even if that means the ITN section for today (and until we find a replacement) is shorter than normal. Alexysun (talk) 17:55, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I believe the only documented reason to remove a blurb is becuase there is not enough space due to WP:ITNBALANCE. The community has not provided any other guidance to remove "stale" items. —Bagumba (talk) 18:06, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

We've also not had a lot of nominated blurbs that would be appropriate to post, either due to lack of article quality or lack of significance for front page posting. New blurbs displace older ones. Masem (t) 19:20, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba@Masem Well the Kasia image seems to have been removed now! Not sure what happened! Blurb is still up, but image has been changed to a pic of the Paralympic Opening ceremony. Good change! Alexysun (talk) 23:52, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

ITN image is explained at WP:ITNPICT. If the image is not from the topmost blurb, and one knows a suitable image from a higher blurb, it can be noted at WP:ERRORS for replacement. —Bagumba (talk) 03:47, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba Well I know she wasn’t the top blurb for days, so it seems more like a lack of will to change it rather than no one realizing it was an “error” in conflict with “policy”. Alexysun (talk) 07:49, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Well of course if there really wasn’t a picture for higher blurbs I guess she would have to stay.. Alexysun (talk) 07:53, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

It was the usual inertia which afflicts ITN due to its obstructive culture. To keep the section as fresh as the other main page sections, there have been recent suggestions such as Changing the picture daily (above) which could easily be done by using RD photos like Sid Eudy (pictured). There's plenty of support for these ideas but the same obstructionism which prevents frequent updates also prevents the process being improved. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:17, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:In the news/Archive 112 § Currently 2 options: RD or RD/blurb. How about a 3rd option: RD/photo but no blurb? was stalled on objective criteria on how to determine what images to rotate in. —Bagumba (talk) 16:27, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

No, that's just where you got hung up. I tried to explain how bottom-to-top is basically oldest-to-newest. Then the rest of us started waiting for someone uninvolved to properly/technically/finally close it and that someone didn't come. A bot set us back to the beginning, marked it as a minor edit. The obstructionists probably don't expect us to start over, but who knows? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:28, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

... waiting for someone uninvolved to properly/technically/finally close it and that someone didn't come: Or there's no consensus. But carry on.—Bagumba (talk) 02:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, "no consensus", just a vast majority of respondents agreeing that the proposed idea is a good idea and we should try it. I know how these word games work. "Carrying on" within the next conveniently unspecified period will get the next proposal shot down as "too soon" and a non-zero number will maintain that since our agreement wasn't recognized by a closing admin, it "didn't happen" before and so can't possibly, everafter. This will be enough to waste even more time on cleaning out the clear and present quagmire in which people like you seem to relish staying stuck. So, "nah, it's cool". I'll wait for someone else to start, again. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:17, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

The net-net is that until WP:ITNPICT and WP:ITN/A are updated with clear, objective instructions on what an admin is expected to do differently, the image process remains that same. —Bagumba (talk) 03:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

The word "net-net" means absolutely nothing to me, but I'll see how I can help on those other pages later; thanks for the clue. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:33, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @InedibleHulk here in this thread. Have been away for some time, but, this one seemed like there was consensus to rotate images. Was there an agreement on the final solution (what I would call 'implementation detail') -- No. But, was there sufficient to get a workable solution -- In my opinion (as an involved editor), the answer is yes. Ktin (talk) 22:02, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Bagumba and I subsequently worked out a bit of implementation detail (ID?) here. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Brilliant! That is exactly what I had in mind. I can definitely stand behind this implementation detail. cc @Bagumba @InedibleHulk Ktin (talk) 06:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

That discussion was archived with no action. In a contentious discussion on admin procedures it's not for involved parties to decide on the outcome or assess consensus. I suggest you start an RFC and make sure it's closed formally so that we know where we stand.  — Amakuru (talk) 07:05, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

In light of the recent uproar over even explicitly written ITN rules, I cannot endorse a mere "workable solution" from an initial wag. The devil is in the details, with the instructions iteratively refined and reaching consensus. —Bagumba (talk) 08:09, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

instructions iteratively refined -- I think therein lies the answer. Given the broad consensus (again, I will agree that I am an involved editor), we should start with something like what @InedibleHulk has detailed and we iteratively refine as we go. If you look at past discussions at ITN where many meaningful decisions were made (see most ITNR introductions) -- this is how they were done. Ktin (talk) 02:30, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

"In the news" section on the homepage?

(Moving here for discussion?)

Seems to be a primary spot for the site, but not updated very much. Is there some reason it doesn't get refreshed regularly/daily?

If the main page had 138 million page views in the last 30 days, maybe the space could be used for something more intriguing or something that changes/refreshes every day like the other sections on the main page?

Are there any other current event links on the page? Or how about "positive" news items to balance the negative trends of the for profit media? If this is an encyclopedia not a news organization, maybe “in the news” space might be better used as something else? Just wondering. Seems a waste of potential to me. Or, maybe a most popular article of the day, or the week, or month, or year, that rotates? Or what were the most popular “wiki news” articles on this day last year or previous years? What was catching our attention then? 2600:6C4A:4E7F:8D9D:A01C:BC24:5FA0:D971 (talk) 15:05, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

There are 8 or 9 different questions in your post. Is there an overarching point that you're trying to make? _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 15:41, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

It sounds to me that the IP user's main complaint is the staleness of ITN, which we have explained as "we do not make the news". Natg 19 (talk) 16:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

There's a similar thread at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) § In the news —Bagumba (talk) 17:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

As opposed to what Natg 19 (talk · contribs) states, the primary reason ITN doesn't update frequently is that there isn't a set consensus on what ITN's significance criteria is or even what ITN stands for, meaning that people with wildly differing perceptions about how ITN should even be operating in fight over most stories, leading to a lot of blurbs not getting posted or even preemptively not being nominated. An institution/organization/idea ought to know what its purpose is to adequately function. ITN didn't really have this issue a decade ago, but the incentive structures have led us to where we are now. — Knightoftheswords 17:44, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I also agree with this, but unfortunately, there are many editors here who are against changing or codifying ITN's criteria. We have had so many proposals to change things but with no real movement. Natg 19 (talk) 17:46, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Who are the editors against any change in the process or format? Can we discuss? 2600:6C4A:4E7F:8D9D:556D:A75B:7DC9:55A9 (talk) 12:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

... there isn't a set consensus on what ITN's significance criteria is ... It's quite clearly a free-for-all. WP:ITNSIGNIF reads:

It is highly subjective whether an event is considered significant enough, and ultimately each event should be discussed on its own merits. The consensus among those discussing the event is all that is necessary to decide if an event is significant enough for posting.

—Bagumba (talk) 18:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Yea, this is leading to borderline WP:BATTLEGROUND's and WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:17, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I just...don't ever get this argument. The vast majority of the main page updates every 24 hours at the minimum. Why does ITN need to be exactly the same? DarkSide830 (talk) 04:47, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

No one is stating that ITN ought to be updated at midnight GMT every day. What people are saying is that for a part of Wikipedia that is devoted to highlighting articles about recent events, the section is surprisingly stale. Granted, in part, that's due to folks not bringing articles up to par, but perhaps we we had not cultivated such a strangely toxic environment on this part of the project, more people would be compelled to improve said articles instead of leaving/feeling forced to justify every nomination with their life.

I really don't like this attitude that some regulars here espouse, since to me, it comes off as the "this is fine" meme, where it seems like there are a group of editors who respond to ITN's dysfunction by plugging their ears, blindfolding themselves, and pretending that this is normal. It is not. It was not normal a decade ago, it is not normal on other parts of the main page, and it should not be normal on contemporary ITN. Acknowledging that is the first step to building a better ITN. — Knightoftheswords 12:49, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with KOTS, folks seem awfully confrontational on ITN recently, closures are being made while discussions are still active, and it's become a frustrating place to find common ground. Admins who attempt to find consensus on the weight of the arguments are also confronted by angry editors who feel ITN is a vote, and vice-versa. I'm not even sure what the remedy is here, because the policies are vague at best and any attempt at improving them are met with similar confrontation and resistance. I will admit though more policy isn't always the best remedy either. Really confounded as to what we can do here to improve the situation.

I foresee ITN going away in the next few years though if we can't find a way to get along. Sad, really. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:16, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

The larger problem along these lines is that editors are not respecting that WP is an encyclopedia first and foremost and not a newspaper per NOTNEWS. But instead, we have editors rushing to create articles about any seemingly significant event just because there's a flood of news coverage, at times, creating splits that may be POVish in nature because they are prioritize the event as news rather than the event as something with long-term term impact. These articles (for years) have been flooded with excessive details as the event happens and endless reaction sections and are not written to the standards we expect that encyclopedic articles on events are supposed to be written as. Whether this is a misunderstanding, a type of article ownership, or a failure to keep in check, we do have this unreasonable expectation that we should be covering all major events in WP and, in succession, on ITN. Now, we can't easily fix this problem with NOTNEWS without a larger review of the problem, but at ITN, we should be reflecting that we should focus more on high quality articles and events that will have long term significance or that feature quality articles in a substantial update. We should not be necessarily focused on what are headlines (the unwritten mantra that ITN is not a news ticker), but what is reflecting how well WP can cover topics that are in the news. That should mean we should be able to broaden the types of news we cover (more science and medical breakthroughs, for example) while diminshing things like small-scale disasters or "first world problems" that typically get excessive coverage by the media. But with all that, that points to a lack of blurb suggestions for ITN to explore what broader topics are reasonable to include. Masem (t) 16:41, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I've heard this argument for a while now. Imma keep it real: I don't understand why it keeps being brought up if it only gets mentioned as a clapback to people complaining about the staleness of ITN and then literally in any other context, no action is actually taken. I have still yet to hear a convincing argument for why taking articles that you believe violate WP:NOTNEWS/WP:NEVENTS to WP:AFD is bad. People keep citing WP:BEFORE or how it would halt the nomination process. An article by existing is presumed to be notable until someone nominates it for deletion. ITN's job is not to serve as WP:AFD lite; if you truly believe than an article is ineligible to even exist, it should go to AFD as soon as possible. It's not like articles haven't been AFDed before, and its not like these articles which get criticized for violating wiki guidelines get AFDed afterwards anyway (btw, given how stale ITN is, perhaps if we had a DYKeque archiving system where noms roll off after the day the oldest blurb was posted, AFD's week-long halting effect wouldn't even be much of an issue!).

I'm a bit disappointed in you Masem (talk · contribs) since it seems like you're coming from a good-faith POV and have clearly been a veteran and respected contributor here, but I feel as if over the years, you've accumulated some very contradictory notions regarding the state of ITN, and I find this argument to be a good example of such. To keep it real, from your POV, the literal best strategy to combating supposedly notability-inadequate articles on ITN would to just nominate them at AFD; the place where consensus for article notability is reached. It's a hell of a lot better than these discussions regarding the topic that tend to not go anywhere since not even the proponents are committed to the bit (as again evidence by how these articles are still up long after they've rolled of the MP and candidates page, despite the argument being that the reason why the articles don't go to AFD is that it would be unnecessarily disruptive towards the nominating process). — Knightoftheswords 21:38, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

The AFD issue has nothing to do with this matter. An article by existing is presumed to be notable until someone nominates it for deletion is not correct, and we are absolutely free to question if the topic is really notable at ITN without having to send it to AFD, since we are talking about article that are to be featured on WP's main page, and showing appropriate notability (here by WP:N and NEVENT) is necessary, whether an AFD is started or not.

That ITN may go stale is completely appropriate given that not every top news story on a daily basis makes for an appropriate encyclopedic topic or a major expansion of an existing topic. If one want to read and write about news, that's what Wikinews is for; ITN is meant to feature quality articles that happen to be in the news, which is not the same thing as necessarily following what is making news. Masem (t) 21:51, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

we are absolutely free to question if the topic is really notable at ITN without having to send it to AFD, since we are talking about article that are to be featured on WP's main page, and showing appropriate notability (here by WP:N and NEVENT) is necessary, whether an AFD is started or not.

So why is it that after these noms roll off the MP or WP:ITNC, they never get nominated for AFD? Again, fundamentally, articles that violate notability guidelines should be sent to AFD/WP:SPEEDY as swiftly as possible. When I stated An article by existing is presumed to be notable until someone nominates it for deletion, this is what I meant, i.e, INT is not AFD. This is basically how they do it on DYK (see this nomination as an example). And once again, the staleness argument does not match up with how ITN was a decade ago. — Knightoftheswords 22:25, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

At Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 166 § h-Request for comment on the future of Wikipedia:In the news-2020-02-25T17:54:00.000Z in 2020, consensus was against ITN going away. General feeling was that it was useful, but needed improvements. —Bagumba (talk) 03:26, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Well it's your opinion that it's stale. We intend to post news that's impactful and the most noteworthy. Anything that meets that bar should theoretically remain notable for a while. If you think this is "dysfunction", that's your opinion, but I think having a high bar is appropriate. DarkSide830 (talk) 15:28, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I guess it is a question of what is "stale". The first listed item (helicopter crash) occurred about a week ago, so that seems stale to me. The rest are from August, with the Germany attack being from August 23. I do think more "recent" news should be listed on this infobox. Natg 19 (talk) 16:28, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I feel like the fact that the rules aren't clearly defined is the reasons for all of these problems. When people say it's "stale" they don't specify what it means. Stale as in old news? or stale as in not notable? What news is considered notable varies from person to person and thus makes consensus hard to define at times. Rager7 (talk) 21:59, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Maybe it's time to just change the name "In the news" to something else, as clearly has become a bit of a misnomer now. Connormah (talk) 22:50, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Maybe the title "Current Events" can be a better name for this? Rager7 (talk) 23:03, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

That would cause confusion with Portal:Current events. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 00:10, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

And without changing the meaning. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:14, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I dunno, if the news we post isn't impactful enough to remain notable after a week then it shouldn't be posted. Correct me if I'm wrong, but ITN was created in part due to 9/11, which could be considered the one most significant event of the 21st century. I'm all for more nominations, but they aren't forthcoming. We could have gotten the X block (which is, at best, disruptive for millions of people), but apparently that was just some petty squabble and thus not notable enough, even if it checks every box (coverage, impact, reader interest, you name it). DarkSide830 (talk) 03:05, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

And it's your opinion that it's not stale. Now what?

It looks like the original purpose of this section was to respond to the fast pace news of 9/11/01. As we approach the 23rd anniversary, maybe In The News has run it's course and not appropriate for an encyclopedia?

"General feeling was that it was useful, but needed improvements." What improvements were made? 2600:6C4A:4E7F:8D9D:40A:3B86:385D:ECB1 (talk) 12:16, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

There wasn't any specific improvements from that particular RfC: There was an attempt to expand the scope of the RfC to discuss alternative solutions; however, that side-discussion is being drowned out. If there is still interest in those alternative approaches, it should be discussed in a new thread —Bagumba (talk) 12:21, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

The stale and unproductive state of ITN is clear. Contrast this with the Portal:Current events which has much the same goal but is far more productive, posting several new items every day without much drama or difficulty. For example, for yesterday, September 7, it has 19 bullet points covering a good range of topics.

The main reason that it's more productive is that it is not protected and so editors can just get on with it. Yesterday's page, for example, has had 16 editors and 37 edits with @Dmhll, GWA88, and QalasQalas: foremost among them. These editors don't seem to be active at ITN so presumably prefer the more productive environment of the portal.

I get the impression that the ITN sections of other language Wikipedias are not so tightly protected. Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia that anyone can edit...

Andrew🐉(talk) 10:00, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Because the current events portal does not have to worry about the quality issues of items being features on the main page. Masem (t) 12:00, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Portal:CE editor here. To be honest, I had assumed there was a committee or at least a few dedicated editors doing ITN, and the process of nominating an article there is just too much effort for me. I check Portal:CE a few times a day and make edits there because I read it often, but I don't really pay attention to ITN personally. Dmhll (talk) 21:45, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

There's few committees on WP, as it would go against WP:OWN and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. However, it's also a challenge that there is no editor-in-chief. —Bagumba (talk) 04:42, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Admins Available?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Any admin available to look at the backlog? Seems like we have a few articles ready for posting for sometime now. Ktin (talk) 13:51, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I posted three RDs. Which others do you think are ready? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:59, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Appreciate it. Ktin (talk) 14:02, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Hinsliff might also be ready. Ktin (talk) 14:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Pinged the early commenters. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:07, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Ktin (talk) 14:15, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Golson seems ready as well. We should post starting from the bottom of the page. Ktin (talk) 14:29, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

• Just a note that there is a template @ITNA which will ping a group of "posting admins". Natg 19 (talk) 15:43, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.