Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations

MainCriteriaInstructionsNominationsOctober 2024 Backlog DriveMentorshipReview circlesDiscussionReassessmentReport

Good article nominations

This is the discussion page for good article nominations (GAN) and the good articles process in general. To ask a question or start a discussion about the good article nomination process, click the Add topic link above. Please check and see if your question may already be answered; click the link to the Frequently asked questions below or search the Archives below. If you are here to discuss concerns with a specific review, please consider discussing things with the reviewer first before posting here.

Bot problem

Something is causing ChristieBot to crash on every single run, meaning that nothing will update till it’s fixed. I’m traveling till Sunday with no access to the system so the only way to get it to run is going to be to find the offending nomination template (which is almost certainly what is causing the issue). Whatever the edit was that caused the problem appears to have been made at around 12:00 noon US Eastern time. Usually it’s caused by omitting or misformatting a parameter or parameter value. I have code to catch all the cases I know about but this must be something new. Sorry about this but I can’t even help look at the moment as I’ll be in a car for hours yet. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:17, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: Should we be looking at the templates in the GAN lists, on the individual GAN pages, or on the article talk pages themselves? Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 18:29, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

The templates on the article talk pages, I would expect. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:31, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Mike Christie, it looks like the bot wasn't running all the way through significantly earlier than that. The last run that affected the WP:GAN page was at 00:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC); the next run where ChristieBot made some edits was at 03:43, when it was working on the just-opened Talk:Sleeping Beauty (1959 film)/GA3: it made three edits, to the review page, article talk page, and nominator's talk page, but never updated WP:GAN. (I didn't see anything on that review page or talk page that appeared likely to break anything.) BlueMoonset (talk) 02:39, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

It really isn't ideal that so much of the GAN process is based around a single point of failure. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:31, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Which reminds me of one person who might be able to help. SD0001, if you have a moment would you look at the tail of christiebot-gan.err on Toolforge? The last error might well be me mishandling an exception, but before that it might identify what it was processing before it crashed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:34, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Looks like this is resolved from Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Can someone not a maintainer read a file on toolforge?. I have been at an event myself and am only seeing this now. – SD0001 (talk) 17:19, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it’s fixed — I didn’t realize till after I’d pinged you that someone else might be able to look at the logs for me. Thanks. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:07, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

So I did a search through Talk namespace, for pages with {{GA nominee}} on them, sorted by latest edits. Scrolled down to "Ianto's Shrine" (one of the last pages bot processed on WP:GAN) and went up. One of the next pages is Talk:Holzwarth gas turbine, where an editor failed the nomination, then reverted the edit and put it on hold instead. But the bot already processed the fail. Could that be it? AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 02:30, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I added a signature to Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Green Lantern (film)/1, which was added to GAN during Christiebot's last edit there. CMD (talk) 02:47, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm still receiving the failure emails every twenty minutes, so whatever is causing the crash is still in place. AstonishingTunesAdmirer, the list you created is exactly what I would have thought would find the error, whatever it is, but I've just looked at every article edited since the time in question and can't see any errors in those templates. BlueMoonset, that's a good point; I'll look a bit further back. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:03, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I've looked at earlier pages and can't see an issue anywhere. I've posted a note on WP:VPT asking if anyone can read the log file to identify the troublesome page. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:18, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

The bot is running again, thanks to Hawkeye7, who posted the errors for me to review at VPT. The issue was triggered by edits to Talk:Holzwarth gas turbine reversing a fail and changing it to a hold; when that happens the bot records an error, because the page now has an active template for a review page that the bot thought was inactive because of the fail. That's not particularly rare, but in this case the previous error on the error page User talk:ChristieBot/Bug messages was to record that the bot couldn't write to a page because that page had the {{bots}} template on it, which forbids bots from writing to a page. That template was included in the error message, so the attempt to write the new error failed because the bug message page now had the {{bots}} template too. I've removed the old error message from the bug messages page, so the bot can now run.

The proper fix is for me to change the bot so that when it records the error it doesn't include the {{bots}} template as part of the message. I won't be able to do that till next week, so in the unlikely event that the bot tries to write to another page protected by {{bots}}, it will start crashing again the next time after that that it writes an error. Clearing the bug messages page will resolve it again. I'll post another note here when I've updated the bot to address this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 07:21, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Thankyou Mike for getting this sorted and for all your work with ChristieBot. Hope your travels go well. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:00, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe this is now fixed; the next time the bot runs into a page with the {{bots}} template it should quote the template in its internal error message, rather than transcluding it. No way to tell for sure it's fixed till the next time it happens, but I'll keep an eye on it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:05, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Spot-check

I have seen an uptick in GAN reviews in which a reminder is given to list the sources that have been checked to see if they verify the information or not. So, I wanted to pre-emptively ask if that's absolutely required, bcs I mostly just check that while reviewing the article itself, without listing the ones I have checked? DoctorWhoFan91 (talk) 18:15, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Spot checks are required. However, if you just list the ones you check while reviewing the article itself, that will be fine, no need for another step if you're already checking the sources. CMD (talk) 18:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 October 2024

Moved to Talk:2010 Haiti earthquake § Semi-protected edit request on 8 October 2024

GAN backlog drive update

Hi folks,

There are 197 articles left in the first list for this month's backlog drive (we started with 271). That means we're on track to finish the whole list by the end of the month! If you haven't joined in yet, feel free to do so at any time. -- asilvering (talk) 01:06, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Review gone awry; where to now

I had nominated Boyd Exell for GA about 4 months ago; my first ever request. One of the October 2024 backlog drive participants took it up, however I felt like they were fighting with me, were non-responsive, and not cooperative. The reviewer failed the review, but I feel they have several misunderstandings about Wikipedia guidelines in general that they were incorrectly operating on during the process. For example, the reviewer:

1. insisted I violate MOS:US; (that set the wrong tone right at the beginning)
2. insisted I use his example from essay WP:INTERVIEWS, which he misunderstands, and he would not answer my questions about it; (I had to locate the source of his 'Joe Film' example using an insource search because reviewer didn't provide it, and reading it is when I discovered he misunderstands the purpose behind the 'Joe Film' example)
3. misunderstands a watermark issue of an image which the photographer specifically gave permission to use and crop for this article, and which has been reviewed, accepted and noted in WikiCommons by another editor. The reviewer's issue seems to be about a cropped-out copyright watermark from the original image and deems that unfixable and causes the review to fail. The reviewer doesn't understand why a professional photographer would upload their images to Flickr with copyright watermarks and later change the license to 'share';
4. closed out the review just 12 hours after my last edit. (I had planned on working on it tonight)

I am unsure how to proceed from here. I will not 'fix' issues reviewer has now left 'documented' on the article talk page — because they are, frankly, wrong (hindering renomination). And I am not willing to continue to work with that reviewer at this point. But I wanted to document this negative experience and see if there is any chance someone else might look at Talk:Boyd Exell/GA1 to see if I'm interpreting this correctly, and offer direction on how I might proceed from here.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:35, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• If you do not believe that the issues raised by the reviewer are valid (and having quickly read through the review, I'm inclined to agree with you), there's nothing to stop you from immediately renominating the article. If the previous reviewer's objections aren't problems, a subsequent reviewer shouldn't hold them against you. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 09:24, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

  I don't love that the solution to "someone pushed me out of the queue" is to be sent to the back of the queue and hope the pushing stops on its own. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:13, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the ideal is extending 2O to articles that have been failed. Hauling someone to WT:GAN every time or accepting another 6 month wait is too much. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:19, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think Alexeyevitch should be reviewing at this time. They take a very narrow, binary approach to a process that isn't necessary black and white. Viriditas (talk) 09:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

He just failed a second review, this time Izhorian Museum, claiming that it doesn’t meet RS guidelines without explaining how or why. Also the user is wrong about using local media sources yet keeps repeating this claim. Viriditas (talk) 01:54, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

It was a short review, and it does seem many concerns raised go past what is required for WP:GACR, even if they were correct. I would encourage you to do the work you planned to do, and other work you may consider useful, and renominate. As an aside, I would not pass the article with the current WP:lead, which does not seem to be written as a summary of the body. CMD (talk) 09:55, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I cannot glean from the reviewer's comments that they were fighting with [you], but cannot say the reverse. Your replies were unnecessarily hostile. For example, [n]o, abbreviations DO NOT TYPICALLY require periods, especially for "US" and "UK". See MOS:US! is an excessive way to correct someone, especially after they have acknowledged uncertainty on the matter. It would have been sufficient to just link to the relevant MOS section without all-caps yelling, and exclamation marking the link. If you disagree with the review – and like Caeciliusinhorto, I too am inclined to agree – then simply renominate the article with or without alteration and another reviewer can pick it up. But please, temper your demeanor. Reviewers are volunteers too. Mr rnddude (talk) 10:06, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the various advices. I have decided to renominate it for GA, and I hope it can be re-added to the October drive under "Articles by new nominators (<10 GAs)" to give it a chance to get picked up by another reviewer.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 05:24, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I've added it back to the list where it was. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:41, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, PMC.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 18:17, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Regarding name articles

Hey all. I'm currently reviewing the article on Fiona, which is about a given name. It includes sections about its etymology and historical popularity, as well as a list of notable people with the name. I had assumed when reviewing it that the list section should be considered effectively as a disambiguation section, and thus shouldn't require citations to reliable sources like the prose sections (per WP:APOENTRIES). However, I notice that Voorts (talk · contribs) recently quick-failed a review for the article on Tamara (given name), in part because it didn't include citations for its list of names (alongside other issues). Could somebody else comment on this? Should we require citations for every entry in a list section for given name articles? Or should we treat them functionally as disambiguation sections, and thus not require citations? --Grnrchst (talk) 13:23, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:GACR#2b requires that "All content that could reasonably be challenged ... must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph". I'm not sure what content could be reasonably challenged here: is it really reasonable to ask for a reliable source demonstrating that Fiona Bruce's name is Fiona? (I would question the inclusion of Fionna Campbell: is "Fionna" the same name as "Fiona"? Other people with names related to "Fiona" aren't included in the list) Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

That's not what sourcing was needed for in that article. If it's purely a list of names with no other information, I agree no citations are needed. But when you start adding birth dates, occupations, etc., citations are needed, especially for living people. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:22, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't think a brief description of occupations ("Tamara Adrián, Venezuelan politician" is the first entry in Tamara (given name)#Notable people with the given name; "Fiona Adams, British photographer" is the first in Fiona#Notable people with the given name) is really "content that could reasonably be challenged". I would have said that I was pretty hawkish on including inline citations, and I wouldn't even have considered that it might be needed in this case. But maybe I'm wildly out of step with current GA norms? Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:35, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I feel it'd be very silly to require citations for the disambiguation portion of the page; I concur with Grnrchst's point that they don't require citations in normal dab pages. We don't need citations for the short description of pages in a "see also", after all. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Set Index Articles are an odd set and not really what the GACR was designed for. The Wikipedia:Set index articles guideline states that "List items do not require citations if they only give information provided by the source(s) cited in the introduction to the list. If an item gives more information, that should be backed up by citations." My read on that for this article would be that names do not need to be sourced, but biographical (or other) details do. CMD (talk) 16:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis: Would biographical details even as simple as birth/death years, nationalities and professions (i.e. what are usually in short description) require citations? --Grnrchst (talk) 11:24, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Given how unsimple nationality can be, I would cite that. As for everything else, I don't have much experience with SIAs, so I'm working with the guideline as written. I would be interested if anyone knew of discussions that led to that guideline formulation. CMD (talk) 13:33, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that such lists should be spun off into their own disambiguation page if they aren't already; there will be hundreds of articles on people with the first name Fiona, and it makes no sense to lump them into an article about the name so that everything else is conpletely overshadowed. If the list on the page itself isn't comprehensive, you need some sort of source for selection criteria anyway. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:59, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Another option would be to use {{Annotated link}} in such a list, relying on the {{Short description}} in each article to provide the extra text without citation.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀

Need second opinion.

Hi. My article Susanne Craig is going through a review. The editor and I have clashing editing styles and their comments, which I believe I have worked on, are being left in a confusing manner. Was wanting a second opinion to see how this article can move forward. Lisha2037 (talk) 06:28, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

For context, this is continued from Wikipedia:Teahouse#Good Article Editor. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 06:46, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Hello, I am the reviewer for the GAN. Honestly, I'm going to suggest that nobody bother to read Talk:Susanne Craig/GA1 because it's just too much of a mess. The nominator says it's confusing, the reviewer (myself) says it's confusing, and there's no reason to subject another editor to that confusion and waste their time. It's just not a good use of volunteer time. (To be clear, I am not requesting a second opinion.)

I'm not going to point fingers or compare achievements at GAN. We got into this mess together and it is what it is. I feel that it would be easier to start a new review than to attempt a second opinion on this one, assuming that (1) the nomination does not pass in the next couple days and (2) someone is willing to nominate it again. (I'll briefly mention that two of the GANs I failed in the past I ultimately and successfully took to GA myself, so that's a possibility.)

I suppose this will probably make a couple editors curious enough to look at the review. If anyone cares to dissect it, I stand by my work and am open to constructive criticism. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:33, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Thebiguglyalien are you able to see what I can do? Lisha2037 (talk) 14:35, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Reidgreg I still want a second opinion on this, even if it’s confusing. The editor is still able to go through the article like a normal editor would and check if it meets the criteria for a GA. They don’t even have to look at your comments which many have already pointed out to me are excessive at points (I am new here so I may not directly realize when an editor is being intense) Lisha2037 (talk) 14:34, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

From your comments, edit summaries, etc., I don't think you want me to have a second opinion. It seems to me that what you're asking for is a new reviewer. (eg: your double revert to the GA nominee template with the edit summary "Well then I want you off this review.") To get a new reviewer, you need a new review. At least I believe that's how it works. I can't close the review without giving you a fair amount of time to make changes to meet the GA criteria. However, you can request that I fail the review, in which case I can close it right away and you can renominate it and get a new reviewer. – Reidgreg (talk) 15:14, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Reidgreg A second opinion template means another editor looks at the nomination. It’s not a second opinion from you. Lisha2037 (talk) 16:08, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah. To clarify: I don't think you want me to be provided with a second opinion. – Reidgreg (talk) 19:41, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Reidgreg Is your concern keeping the two reviews seperate? I've incremented the review, so that the next editor's review will be on a separate page.[1] @Lisha2037: This will keep the article's place in line at Wikipedia:Good article nominations. Good luck with the next review, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 16:12, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Rjjiii So so since it’s failed, I’ve re added the template to the article. I hope that’s how it gets nominated again. Lisha2037 (talk) 16:14, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I reverted that edit. It's already done. Hopefully you won't need it in the future, but the instructions are at WP:GAN/I#N4a. It comes up most often when an editor starts a review but has something come up in the real world that limits their time, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 16:30, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:GAN/I#N4a applies to abandoned reviews. I have not abandoned the review. I am waiting for the nominator to respond to unanswered comments, per the last sentence of my last statement on the review page. Having the nominator turn that around and say that they're waiting for me... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I note that following a double-revert and improper edits to the GA nominee template, the nominator has now blanked Talk:Susanne Craig/GA1. Could someone please talk to the nominator about WP:Disruptive editing. The nominator is not inclined to listen to me about it. Thanks. – Reidgreg (talk) 18:23, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I have re-instated the contents of the review. Blanking was not an appropriate course of action. The least confrontational path from here is for both reviewer and nominator to disengage from each other. It is clear that Lisha2037 wants a new reviewer. It appears that a source review of all sources was conducted, which is well above and beyond what is required of a reviewer. You only need to spot-check a sample of the sources (~10% seems to be standard). This isn't a criticism of the effort, but if an article has hundreds of cites, it'd be a herculean demand of the reviewer to access and review all of those sources. That source review is what gives the appearance that the review is "intense". The mark-up doesn't help. The other elements of the review appear to me to be standard. Mr rnddude (talk) 18:57, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

One additional aside, because it is bothering me. You can safely ignore pigsonthewings demand that you sign every single line of your review. That is not how editors conduct reviews. Mr rnddude (talk) 19:01, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I have not requested a second opinion, withdrawn as reviewer, passed nor failed the review. Talk:Susanne Craig/GA1 should still be open. Incrementing the GA nominee template is premature. – Reidgreg (talk) 18:08, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Reidgreg, I think it would be easier if you failed the review at this point. From the comments above you are not ready to pass it and the nominator doesn't want to work with you, so it isn't going to pass. If you revert the blanking and fail it then the next nomination can be picked up by whoever wishes to review it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:25, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I absolutely agree that it would be easier to fail it. But it would be premature for me to do that. The review has only been open for 5 days, which is too soon for a non-quickfail fail (WP:GAN/I#HOLD suggests 7 days). The only way I can fail it now is for the nominator to formally request I fail it. Once again, I'm waiting on the nominator. – Reidgreg (talk) 19:55, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

It is entirely up to you to fail it; you definitely don't need the nominator to agree or even comment. The GA process places the responsibility for the decision solely on the nominator. I'm not saying you have to fail it, but you certainly aren't prevented from doing so by not hearing from the nominator. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:01, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that support. But I'm a stickler for the rules and will keep it on hold for a while longer, barring a nominator request. I stand by my record and I want to be able to honestly say that I gave the nominator every chance. – Reidgreg (talk) 20:20, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

We're making this more difficult than it needs to be. Lisha2037, would you like to fail the nomination so a new reviewer can take it? I'll do it myself; I'm already looking for women's biographies to review for this month's WP:Women in Green event (I recommend you join if you're interested in this topic area, it's a great little community). Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:32, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Thebiguglyalien yes I have repeatedly mentioned that to the editor. I want this article re-reviewed. I have worked on all the comments and yet he says please work on them as if to keep prolonging the process. If you jump in I will provide a full summary to everything I have edited section by section to make it easier to grasp.

Also what’s crazy is that I did get a notification that’s it’s been failed and then I checked an hour later and it was back up so I’m not exactly sure what happened or if he’s just wanting to keep the article to himself. Lisha2037 (talk) 20:37, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

All right. Reidgreg, if you insist on failing it yourself, then you can add Template:FailedGA to the talk page. Otherwise I or someone else will get around to doing it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:53, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Thebiguglyalien: You see what's happening above? I'm all for being kind to newcomers but competency is required. This could be over with three words from the nominator but for some reason, even when prompted, they can't manage to type them. I put up with this throughout the review. – Reidgreg (talk) 21:14, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Thebiguglyalien the article looks like it’s on the nomination board (so not on hold) - I am new to this so I may be wrong but I think it’s open to have another editor pick this up. And yes I have heard of that project! Will contribute more once I have more experience as I am still learning. Lisha2037 (talk) 20:49, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Lisha2037, I've temporarily removed your new nomination; either Reidgreg or someone else is going to mark the first GA review as a fail shortly, and I don't want the bot to get confused about what's going on. I'm not sure what it will do if it tries to process a failure while another nomination is still open, but I don't want to find out. I'll readd your nomination very shortly. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:00, 13 October 2024 (UTC)