Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations

MainCriteriaInstructionsNominationsOctober 2024 Backlog DriveMentorshipReview circlesDiscussionReassessmentReport

Good article nominations

This is the discussion page for good article nominations (GAN) and the good articles process in general. To ask a question or start a discussion about the good article nomination process, click the Add topic link above. Please check and see if your question may already be answered; click the link to the Frequently asked questions below or search the Archives below. If you are here to discuss concerns with a specific review, please consider discussing things with the reviewer first before posting here.

Inactive reviewer

AryKun began seven reviews at the same time on August 28 and then went on a wikibreak with six of them still active. Would it be appropriate for someone else to process them or return them to the nominations page?

• Talk:Fishing cat/GA3 (not started)
• Talk:Palaeotherium/GA1 (nominator expressed concern that the review was insufficient)
• Talk:Literature of Botswana/GA1 (nominator responded to the review)
• Talk:Pouyannian mimicry/GA1 (nominator responded to the review)
• Talk:Tiger quoll/GA1 (not started)
• Talk:Evarcha striolata/GA1 (nominator responded to the review)

Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I've pinged them on the one they hadn't commented on at all. -- asilvering (talk) 23:33, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

We can G6 that one (Fishing cat), to return it to the queue. Tiger quoll has conversation but nothing substantive. The others have prose reviews but no source reviews, so if AryKun is unable to complete those they will have to be incremented and returned to the queue. CMD (talk) 13:09, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

@Asilvering and Chipmunkdavis: It's true that this user has left comments on every review but mine. Kindly let them know that the pages will be G6ed if they do not complete the reviews within the next 24 hours. Thanks, Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 17:47, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Let's give it until the 28th, a round month since the reviews were opened. CMD (talk) 00:56, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Literature of Botswana, Pouyannian mimicry, and Evarcha striolata were passed as GA by AryKun on the 23rd (without closing hatnotes). I can try and take over Fishing cat and Tiger quoll. Reconrabbit 19:52, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@Reconrabbit, if you could do Tiger quoll that would be helpful and really kind of you - that review is already in progress. I just pinged again on Fishing cat juuust in case, but since there's nothing there except my pings I think it's fine to just delete that one and someone can get to it during the backlog drive. -- asilvering (talk) 20:22, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@Asilvering Hi, just came across this thread. I think that I would see to see the Palaeotherium article review back in queue since I’m unfortunately not confident that it would go well. This is ultimately not up to me, so if you can take further action, I’d appreciate it. Thanks. PrimalMustelid (talk) 22:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

@PrimalMustelid, since that review has already started and has substantial comments, we shouldn't be deleting it. You can relist it yourself, however: see WP:GAN/I#N4a for instructions. -- asilvering (talk) 23:08, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I just double-checked whether this would reset the queue position or not, and it doesn't - so if any of you do this, let me know so I can add the article to the backlog drive list. I won't notice it in the queue otherwise. -- asilvering (talk) 23:12, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I relisted Palaeotherium for an available GAN slot. PrimalMustelid (talk) 23:15, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I've fixed the Palaeotherium relisting; not only does the page field need to be incremented by 1 in {{GA nominee}}, but the "onreview" (or any other current status) needs to be deleted from after "|status=". I've made a similar fix to Talk:Fishing cat, where the review page was deleted. (Both errors showed up on the WP:GAN page.) BlueMoonset (talk) 00:01, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @BlueMoonset, I thought the bot would sort that out on its own. -- asilvering (talk) 21:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

October backlog drive begins soon!

The aim for this month is to completely eliminate a subset of the GAN backlog: we want all nominations submitted before 1 October 2024 by editors who are relatively new to GA to be out of the queue by 31 October. If you're an editor with fewer than 10 GAs, get those nominations in before October begins! As a stretch goal, we're also going to try to eliminate the backlog of GANs by all nominators who have reviewed more articles than they've nominated. -- asilvering (talk) 23:48, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I have a few questions related to this if you don't mind;

1. What counts as relatively new?
2. Are there enough "new nominations" to earn any of the higher end awards? (e.g. The Order)
3. Is this backlog drive restricted to those nominations?

λ NegativeMP1 23:37, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

1. <10 GAs total
2. yes
3. yes.

Right now there are just a handful of example list items on the drive page right now, but a couple of days before it begins I'll put up the full list and we'll be able to see how many we actually have. It won't be fully finalized until the drive actually starts, because I'll have to update the list manually. -- asilvering (talk) 23:50, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Alright, thank you for responding! λ NegativeMP1 23:58, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Asilvering: If you need any help with adding articles, I'll be here, just ping me. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:29, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I don't think it will take all that long, but if I find it's way more of a bother than I thought, I'll shoot you a ping and we can each take one of the lists. -- asilvering (talk) 18:52, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

@Vacant0, it wasn't too bad after all. I'll add the last bunch right as we tick over to Oct 1 UTC, but if you'd give the GAN page a quick skim to see if I might have missed any once I do that, that would be great. -- asilvering (talk) 21:40, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't have time now, but from a quick look at a few sections, everything appears to be alright. From the history page, I see that the newest addition, Matthew Webb, should be added. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 23:23, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Full list is up! -- asilvering (talk) 00:10, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Nice. Good job! Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:59, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

October is also going to be hosting a drive for Women in Green (Sign up here!. If you review an article about women or women's works, feel free to double dip! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:57, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

The lists are up! They'll be a bit subject to change (anything on the list now that gets a review started before Oct 1 will have to come off, and anything applicable that's submitted before then will have to be added), but it looks like we have 260 articles on our first list, and just under 400 when we add the stretch goal list. We can do this! We can get these backlogged lists completely cleared out! -- asilvering (talk) 22:58, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Good articles/GAN Backlog Drives/October 2024#Target articles CMD (talk) 02:13, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Second opinion(s) wanted

I'm currently reviewing tumor necrosis factor which was nominated by @AdeptLearner123, you can see my review so far at Talk:Tumor necrosis factor/GA1. So far I've done a source check and image review but I'm a little stuck with the prose review part. I feel like the article may be a bit too technical but I would appreciate some extra opinions on the topic. I'm also not sure if it is over technical to the point of not qaulifying for GAC or if it's fixable. IntentionallyDense (talk) 20:08, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I think the lead ought to be somewhat more accessible, but I'm not sure if the body needs to be. I'd want to know when students normally learn about the concept before saying anything about the body, since I don't think there's much point in writing something to a high school level if the concept isn't taught until graduate school. -- asilvering (talk) 20:27, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I think that seems fair. My main concerns were with the lead as that’s what most people read. I did ask that they spell out some of the abbreviations they used just cause there is a lot in some of the sections. IntentionallyDense (talk) 23:19, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

At a very quick run through, while there are a lot of short paragraphs that perhaps could be looked at, the prose itself is technical but not badly written. Looking at WP:ONEDOWN, I feel it would be a very ambitious high school that would be teaching this; the study of individual proteins can be PhD-level research. I added a couple of wikilinks, which I do suggest for any particularly technical terms. Get the lead as accessible as possible, perhaps clear up parts of the body you feel wouldn't be comprehensible to a late-year undergraduate student, but overall I don't really know how else you'd write a protein article. CMD (talk) 02:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. I’m currently working with the nominator to make the lead more accessible but I’m mostly leaving the body as is (aside from anything I find during my third read through). IntentionallyDense (talk) 03:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Inactive review

Hi! I nominated the page 2024 ICC Men's T20 World Cup for GA on 25 August and User:Vkwiki100 started reviewing it on 1 September 2024. Then, in two days he has gone off-wiki and hasn't returned yet; it's been almost a month now. The GA review has been on hold for a month now, could someone care to takeover or something? Vestrian24Bio (TALK) 06:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

The review so far is very minimal, if they haven't returned by tomorrow this should go back into the queue for a fresh review. CMD (talk) 11:51, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Second Opinion on the page Tumor necrosis factor

I've decided to officially ask for a second opinion on the Tumor necrosis factor GA review (page:Talk:Tumor necrosis factor/GA1 and nominator:@AdeptLearner123) I'm mostly looking for second opinions regarding prose, readability, and broadness. I will also be asking the medicine wikiproject. Feel free to jump in wherever and offer what suggestions you have! IntentionallyDense (talk) 14:49, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

IntentionallyDense, it is not necessary to notify this page if you are seeking a second opinion, especially if you have only just changed the status. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:39, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I didn’t think it was necessary or anything I just wanted to :) IntentionallyDense (talk) 19:24, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Bot problem

Something is causing ChristieBot to crash on every single run, meaning that nothing will update till it’s fixed. I’m traveling till Sunday with no access to the system so the only way to get it to run is going to be to find the offending nomination template (which is almost certainly what is causing the issue). Whatever the edit was that caused the problem appears to have been made at around 12:00 noon US Eastern time. Usually it’s caused by omitting or misformatting a parameter or parameter value. I have code to catch all the cases I know about but this must be something new. Sorry about this but I can’t even help look at the moment as I’ll be in a car for hours yet. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:17, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: Should we be looking at the templates in the GAN lists, on the individual GAN pages, or on the article talk pages themselves? Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 18:29, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

The templates on the article talk pages, I would expect. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:31, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Mike Christie, it looks like the bot wasn't running all the way through significantly earlier than that. The last run that affected the WP:GAN page was at 00:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC); the next run where ChristieBot made some edits was at 03:43, when it was working on the just-opened Talk:Sleeping Beauty (1959 film)/GA3: it made three edits, to the review page, article talk page, and nominator's talk page, but never updated WP:GAN. (I didn't see anything on that review page or talk page that appeared likely to break anything.) BlueMoonset (talk) 02:39, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

It really isn't ideal that so much of the GAN process is based around a single point of failure. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:31, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Which reminds me of one person who might be able to help. SD0001, if you have a moment would you look at the tail of christiebot-gan.err on Toolforge? The last error might well be me mishandling an exception, but before that it might identify what it was processing before it crashed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:34, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Looks like this is resolved from Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Can someone not a maintainer read a file on toolforge?. I have been at an event myself and am only seeing this now. – SD0001 (talk) 17:19, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it’s fixed — I didn’t realize till after I’d pinged you that someone else might be able to look at the logs for me. Thanks. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:07, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

So I did a search through Talk namespace, for pages with {{GA nominee}} on them, sorted by latest edits. Scrolled down to "Ianto's Shrine" (one of the last pages bot processed on WP:GAN) and went up. One of the next pages is Talk:Holzwarth gas turbine, where an editor failed the nomination, then reverted the edit and put it on hold instead. But the bot already processed the fail. Could that be it? AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 02:30, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I added a signature to Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Green Lantern (film)/1, which was added to GAN during Christiebot's last edit there. CMD (talk) 02:47, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm still receiving the failure emails every twenty minutes, so whatever is causing the crash is still in place. AstonishingTunesAdmirer, the list you created is exactly what I would have thought would find the error, whatever it is, but I've just looked at every article edited since the time in question and can't see any errors in those templates. BlueMoonset, that's a good point; I'll look a bit further back. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:03, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I've looked at earlier pages and can't see an issue anywhere. I've posted a note on WP:VPT asking if anyone can read the log file to identify the troublesome page. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:18, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

The bot is running again, thanks to Hawkeye7, who posted the errors for me to review at VPT. The issue was triggered by edits to Talk:Holzwarth gas turbine reversing a fail and changing it to a hold; when that happens the bot records an error, because the page now has an active template for a review page that the bot thought was inactive because of the fail. That's not particularly rare, but in this case the previous error on the error page User talk:ChristieBot/Bug messages was to record that the bot couldn't write to a page because that page had the {{bots}} template on it, which forbids bots from writing to a page. That template was included in the error message, so the attempt to write the new error failed because the bug message page now had the {{bots}} template too. I've removed the old error message from the bug messages page, so the bot can now run.

The proper fix is for me to change the bot so that when it records the error it doesn't include the {{bots}} template as part of the message. I won't be able to do that till next week, so in the unlikely event that the bot tries to write to another page protected by {{bots}}, it will start crashing again the next time after that that it writes an error. Clearing the bug messages page will resolve it again. I'll post another note here when I've updated the bot to address this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 07:21, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Thankyou Mike for getting this sorted and for all your work with ChristieBot. Hope your travels go well. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:00, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe this is now fixed; the next time the bot runs into a page with the {{bots}} template it should quote the template in its internal error message, rather than transcluding it. No way to tell for sure it's fixed till the next time it happens, but I'll keep an eye on it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:05, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Statistics: Where from?

Hi,

I'm updating my list of GA reviews and nominations, and my numbers aren't adding up with those next to my name on the nomination page. Would anyone know where this data is sourced from? — Chris Woodrich (talk) 22:55, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

It's from ChristieBot's database; your statistics are accessible through this link. If I had to guess, either there are entries from before the current system, or some went on to be FAs and are thus not counted. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks AirshipJungleman29. I've been able to reconcile my numbers with ChristieBot (well, two seem to have been excluded because they were co-noms, because now I have 112 by my count). Does ChristieBot also have a list of reviews? I'm missing five in my notes.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:22, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

• Nix that, I was looking at the other ChristieBot output I'd been using. Yes, this is much more useful. Thank you.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:24, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I checked mine to see if it's a problem elsewhere, and they don't add up either. The GAN stats tool says I have 91 successful promotions with 85 that are still GA. By my count, I've only had 90 successful promotions. Five of those are FA, so 85 is the correct end result. It seems like there's a stray one somewhere that the stats tool thinks was promoted and then demoted, but I'm not aware of any that might have caused this. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:45, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yeah. One nomination at that level isn't a big deal, but there may be a malfunction or other issue (or, perhaps more likely, my count is off). — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:56, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

  Hi, Chris, glad to see you back editing again; it's been a while. I won't be able to look at the data again until Sunday at the earliest but will see if I can reconcile to your list when I get back. TBUA, I can do the same for you if you have a list I can compare to. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks, Mike. I managed to reconcile the reviews. I'm going to try the nominations again, because I'm seeing that the bot isn't counting two articles nominated by others (as correct per its programming), so I think I'm missing one.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:54, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

  Nix that again - I don't have the failed nomination listed on my page, and that's the one off. Thanks for the offer... I should be squared up now! — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:05, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

GA reviewer demanding copies of printed sources

Here, a GA reviewer is demanding that copies of print sources are e:mailed to them. There are serious problems with this - articles are not owned by individuals and it cannot be reasonable to expect that any one editor has access to all the references that have been used in the whole history of an article - 20 years in this case. If the GA review process can ask for any print source used in an article to be available to be emailed to a reviewer, no matter who added the source and when it was added, then it is an effective prohibition of offline sources (for example, it would prevent people from using print sources from a library as they would no longer have a copy of it). Of course, there is also the issue of copyright, and whether sending copies of whole magazine articles would be acceptable from a fair use/fair dealing point of view.Nigel Ish (talk) 19:33, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

You may want to direct the reviewer to WP:RX. Of course, verifiable sources are not required to be easy to access by most standards (WP:SOURCEACCESS). I hesitate to articulate that the "responsibility" is strictly on them to facilitate the verification of the article to their satisfaction, but it's certainly not on you. Remsense ‥ 论 19:42, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Sigh. This is the third venue where this discussion is going on. Please see my comments at Talk:Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma/GA1 so I don't have to repeat them here. RoySmith (talk) 19:46, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Apologies. Remsense ‥ 论 19:47, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

(ec) This is not just an issue for article page as the issue won't just effect one article, but all GA and FA reviews (as there is the requirement to check sources), and by extension all articles - because while offline sources are acceptable according to WP:RS, if the review process demands that sources are always availble, than that places that into question. A GA nominator doesn't own an article, and it would be inappropriate if good sources that are used in the article but not available to the nominator (because they were added long before - in the case of the article in question tat least one of the sources was added by me, not the article nominator, in 2008.Nigel Ish (talk) 20:05, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

As both a nominator and reviewer, I am ready and willing to send any copy of a source at any time, preferably in plain text, as that is easiest. This is a basic requirement. Viriditas (talk) 20:09, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Agree. No article should be failed because the sources are not immediately available to the reviewer. However, if they cannot be made available to the reviewer by any means, we have a failure of WP:V, and that content should not be in the article as it cannot be reasonably verified. -- asilvering (talk) 20:18, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

it cannot be reasonable to expect that any one editor has access to all the references that have been used in the whole history of an article

@Nigel Ish: On the contrary, it is entirely reasonable. I won't nominate an article if I can't verify all of the sources used, no matter who added them. This is not a serious problem at all, it's how we do things. If you are nominating an article in good faith whose sources you haven't checked out, that's a problem. Viriditas (talk) 19:58, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

As noted above, I am not the nominator.Nigel Ish (talk) 20:08, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't speaking of you specifically, but of anyone who nominates. Viriditas (talk) 20:10, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose I should've phrased my comments above a bit more pragmatically: if the reviewer can't verify to their satisfaction, for whatever reason, then they have no reason to pass the review. Remsense ‥ 论 20:12, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

So the nominator should become WP:OWNer of the article and remove anything that they havn't personally verified? How does that comply with Wikipedia being a collaborative project?Nigel Ish (talk) 20:30, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

No one is saying that. What people are saying is that it's good practice for the nominator to verify the sources themselves, and that it's perfectly reasonable for the reviewer to require access to the sources to verify the information in the article. If neither reviewer nor nominator have access to a particular source, they should find someone who does, so the information can be verified. -- asilvering (talk) 20:34, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The idea is that by nominating an article to GA status, you are affirming that it meets the GA criteria. If you cannot confirm the verifiability of non-trivial material in the article, then you really shouldn't be nominating it. Hog Farm _Talk 20:57, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

This attitude essentially requires the removal of off-line sources from anything in GA, turning it into only the Good Articles of stuff available on the internet now. I don't think this is a good idea. Verifying the material in a source does not always imply the ability to send the source materials to others online without copyright violation. For instance, it may be available only physically as books in libraries. Material of that nature should still be acceptable as a source for GA. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:14, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

What? How does it do that? A person can easily verify something available only as a physical book in a library - by going to the library, requesting an interlibrary loan or scan, or by asking the nominator or someone at WP:RX to send a copy of the relevant pages. -- asilvering (talk) 21:18, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

If material is only available in physical form in libraries, it is unreasonable for reviewers to expect nominators to provide it in electronic form. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:39, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

What I was getting at was that there's just as much value in getting something up to as solid of a state as you can without getting the GA badge as there is in GA itself. I can point to several articles I worked on where I felt that GA wasn't in the cards due to various limitations, but I think those are just as good of a contribution as GA. Yes, I understand the shiny badge is a strong motivator, but not everything that gets polished up needs to go through this hoop. You can keep the content in there if you think that it's accurate, without sending the article through GA. Hog Farm _Talk 21:46, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:GAN/I#R3 bullet 1 says This must include a spot-check of a sample of the sources in the article to verify that each source supports the text in the article that it covers. I'm open to other suggestions for how I should do that. If somebody wants to photocopy the material and mail it to me in the paper mail, that works for me. But I suspect your opposition isn't actually to the "in electronic form" part, but rather in the basic idea of verification. That I can't help you with. RoySmith (talk) 21:50, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

It is fairly trivial to take a photo of a couple of pages in a book and email them to the reviewer if you have access to the book. And it is good practice to keep copies (in paper or electronic form) if you can. It does happen occasionally that you no longer have easy access to a source, but I find it rather unusual for that to be the case for more than one or two of the sources of a fresh GA nominee. —Kusma (talk) 22:42, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

It happened to me for only one article, the GA on Brownie Mary. I backed up many of those old newspaper clippings on a spare hard drive somewhere, but if someone was to ask me right now for an exact copy of a sentence from a source, it would take me some time to find it. This is because when I wrote that article, many of those sources were freely available to everyone on Google News archive, which is now mostly defunct. Viriditas (talk) 22:44, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Note, on a lark, I decided to track down these sources, and I think I've identified the majority of them on my spare hard drive, encoded in a text file. I would recommend more people do this; in other words, save the sources as text in a backup file. Viriditas (talk) 00:04, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

It has happened to me that accessing a source requires significant time and effort (involving filling out an interlibrary loan request, waiting days or weeks, and then physically accessing the library) that I do not wish to repeat merely to convince a reviewer that I accessed it once already. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I would agree that in cases like that, the reviewer should be reasonable and not demand such an effort. But 1) a nominator should have verified all information cited in the article at some point in the article development process, and 2) some form of spot-checking is absolutely necessary, with WP:DCGAR being the result when that goes by the wayside. Hog Farm _Talk 23:31, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

If the verification process involves somebody to go to a library and look at a physical book, it seems absurd that we should expect that the nominator do that, scan the book in question, and then email it to the reviewer, when the reviewer could just go to the library themselves. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:49, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

It's 2024 now. Most popular books and periodicals are online and library patrons have access to digital versions in maybe 80% of cases, so this isn't as much of a problem as you are making it out to be. Yes, when we are working on niche topics, this becomes far more difficult. I am currently trying to get a hold of death certificates and old newspaper clippings that have been pretty much lost to time, and I can tell you that it isn't easy. But most people don't have to do that, as we rely on accessible secondary sources for our articles. As it stands right now, 90% of my book browsing is digital, but for Hawaii series by Georgia O'Keeffe, which is currently a GAN as of yesterday, at least three of the books I used for that article do not have digital versions, and I had to go to a physical library to use them. If a reviewer asks to see the material, I will send them a copy in text, as I took cellphone pics of all of the pages as a backup. Viriditas (talk) 22:05, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Sure, if the reviewer can do that, they should! That's what I usually do when I'm reviewing. But I have an unusually good university library at hand. Most people don't have that, so as a nominator, I'd be expecting to have to provide copies of sources if they needed them. -- asilvering (talk) 22:09, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

...assuming they live near a library that has the book. Or live in a place where they can find the book at all, for that matter. Editors come from many different places. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 22:09, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

All editors can access WP:RX, a most amazing place that helps with exactly this. —Kusma (talk) 22:44, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

But (we hope) the editor who added the source to the article has already obtained access to the source. If the nominator is not that person and has not themselves seen the source... I see no reason to deem it absurd that they take on tracking it down instead of the reviewer. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:58, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Nigel Ish should probably steer clear of the GA process until they show they understand it on a basic level; the guidelines re. offline sourcing—as well as policies such as WP:ONUS—are well established, and everyone has to follow them. No one gets a pass by getting the reviewer to do their work for them. RoySmith has experienced this at FAC, I know, as many of us have, and it doesn't matter how experienced one is there: if a reviewer wants a source to confirm source-text integrity, you send it to them. And this isn't something which is slightly weaker at GA just because it's a 'lower' classification of the article: WP:C is a policy with legal implications. Roy was not just within his rights to request offline sources from you; he was mandated to do so by policy (C & V). And all talk about this requirement suddenly creating a form of OWNership is nonsense. It's merely asking the nominator to fulfil their obligations under both policy and project guidelines.

(I'm aware Nigel Ish isn't the nominator of the article in question, but they randomly and as far as I can tell without invitation into a discussion between two others, and then started this thread, which means they must want comments directed to him, rather than the reviewer or nominator.) SerialNumber54129 13:13, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

As you are banning me from the GA process, I assume that this means that I am banned from any page that is going through the GA process, or presumably has gone through the GA process. It's a shame that no-one informed me about whatever community discussion that banned me. I will bother you no more.Nigel Ish (talk) 14:14, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

No-one's banning you, Nigel Ish, certainly not me—I couldn't if I wanted to, and I don't!—I'm merely suggesting that questioning fundamental policies and important guidelines and then tying up loads of editors in a discussion which only leads to you getting told the same thing several times is hardly a productive use of your own or other editors' time and energy. Now take that silly notice of your user page and get on with your work!  :) SerialNumber54129 14:27, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Nigel Ish, I think everyone is talking past each other here. First, no one said banning until you did, and that's not how banning works on Wikipedia. I don't know whether you actually think there was a "community discussion" or if you're trying to make a point, but that doesn't really matter either way—no ban took place. Second, nominating an article for GA doesn't mean "this article looks good". It means "I've verified that this article meets expectations". If a nominator can't verify the sources, then they shouldn't nominate it. I notice you've never actually participated in the GA process. It's far from perfect, but everyone here with experience on the issue has confirmed that verifying sources during a review isn't the problem that you're claiming it is. I've nominated about a hundred good articles now, and I've never once had this issue. Also, if you think that online sources are inherently lower quality, I suggest you check out WP:LIBRARY and the Internet Archive, among other places. This is where most of the project's experienced content writers (including regular GA nominators) get their sources. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 14:40, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I have very little to add to this discussion (except to concur with the many wise and thoughtful contributions made by TBUA, SN, Hog Farm, Roy and others), except perhaps a bit of calm and common sense. Whenever I've come across the rather rare situation in which a reviewer has asked for a source and a nominator has said, in good faith, "oh dear, I don't have access to that any more", a solution has been found -- either that particular check isn't too important, the reviewer says "fair enough" and asks for a different one, or that check is important and we have a discussion to see if any additional sources can be found, and make a call on retention/removal based on that. This really doesn't have to be an adversarial or confrontational process unless people choose to make it one. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 12:08, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Would it be kosher for me to take up this review?

Hey all—I just saw an article I've had on my watchlist since its creation, Religion of the Shang dynasty, just got put up for GAN by its primary contributor. Thing is, I'm probably its distant #2 contributor to date, mostly in the form of style, reference, and copyediting. I'd like this to be a GA and the nomination was a bit of a surprise, but I would like to review it if it's not seen as an issue for me to do so. Remsense ‥ 论 14:39, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

nah i think you're good - if anything, it will mean you can do a more thorough review than someone completely unfamiliar with the topic. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 14:42, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that reviewers are (or should be) allowed to copyedit the article as necessary so long as it doesn't substantially change the content, so to me it doesn't make a huge difference whether that's during the review or before it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 14:44, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

You're really underselling that "distant". I was a bit worried and then took a look at xtools - you're fine. Literal lol. I get more authorship on articles by running iabot. -- asilvering (talk) 18:09, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I would say that's at least partially a function of this article having a very particular edit history, such that the numbers would make a minor contribution look like an infinitesimal one. But thanks all in any case! Remsense ‥ 论 18:12, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Description in Places subsection

Hi, I was just wondering if the descriptions in Places subsection is necessary in its currnet form. "This includes countries, states, counties, cities, neighborhoods, and other political designations in Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Australia and the Pacific, Europe, Middle East, North America, and South America". I don't think there is a need to specify which continents it applies to, especially when it list all of the anywa. I think "This includes countries, states, counties, cities, neighborhoods, and other political designations" would be fine on its own. Alternatively "designations" could be replaced with "subdivisions". Artemis Andromeda (talk) 19:23, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Additional input request

Hello, an article I nominated (Eugenics in Minnesota) was failed, but I don't believe the reviewer specified truly why it failed. After discussing with Viriditas, I have decided to ask for some more input here. Could anyone tell me why this article was failed and how I can improve it? Cedar Tree 03:05, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I think it is very confusing how it was determined what went in the background section and how it was structured. Apart from the "structural" issues referred to by PARAKANYAA, I wouldn't be happy with whole books being used as references without page numbers, such as ref 27. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:24, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

It's an abstract issue, and it's fairly subjective, so I can see why it would be hard to explain. With how the article is organized, it gives the impression that the Baby Health Contest and the Minnesota Eugenics Society were the entirety of the eugenics movement in Minnesota, with some background info and aftermath thrown in for context. Overall, it looks like the author decided in advance what the article should cover and then sought out sources to add those things. Look at the "Tuition waiver helps Native American students in Minnesota" source, for example. The word "eugenics" doesn't appear once in that source, so it almost certainly doesn't belong in the article. And on the other end, why is Ladd-Taylor (2019) only used once? That looks like the sort of source that should be mined until there's nothing left. I've written about this approach at User:Thebiguglyalien/The source, the whole source, and nothing but the source. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:59, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

In addition to the above, I would not pass the article with that lead. It is a very bare summary of the article, and it has two sources, one of which seems unspecific to eugenics in Minnesota. CMD (talk) 04:15, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Spot-check

I have seen an uptick in GAN reviews in which a reminder is given to list the sources that have been checked to see if they verify the information or not. So, I wanted to pre-emptively ask if that's absolutely required, bcs I mostly just check that while reviewing the article itself, without listing the ones I have checked? DoctorWhoFan91 (talk) 18:15, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Spot checks are required. However, if you just list the ones you check while reviewing the article itself, that will be fine, no need for another step if you're already checking the sources. CMD (talk) 18:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)