Talk:2024 United Kingdom riots

Nigel Farage

Should Nigel Farage, Tommy Robinson or any other individual figures be listed in the infobox as riot perpetrators due to potential incitement on social media? 92.10.201.219 (talk) 02:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the only individual where that would make sense is Robinson, but WP:BLP and WP:BLPCRIME apply. Bondegezou (talk) 07:39, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

This is a preposterous suggestion. Encouraging a riot is a crime under British law, for which people have already been convicted and jailed for this event. You can't say that someone encouraged a riot unless they're convicted of it, any more than you can call someone a drug dealer or child abuser. That's it. We have a legal system to decide things like this. Any idea of Wikipedia being a useful source for facts goes out the window if we say people committed crimes because we feel like they did, or we just don't like them. Unknown Temptation (talk) 22:00, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated use of the term 'far-right'

I don't think it's useful or helpful to have so much unfounded use of the term 'far-right' within the Article, from everything I can find the political affiliations of those involved hasn't been publicly released, and the only current defence I've seen of using the phrase is that it's used by media outlets, which is equally worthless as those are also unsubstantiated.

If we look at the breakdown of where the riots happened according to the map infobox on this very article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:2024_United_Kingdom_riots_map) and then look at the political parties elected in those areas highlighted in Hard Blue (Riots and disorder) and Soft Red (Attacks on hotels housing asylum seekers) we get this aggregate:

Labour Party: 72.22% (~72%) Conservative Party: 13.89% (~14%) DUP: 8.33% (~8%) Mixed/Non-Parliamentary Areas: 5.56% (~6%)

Since we have FPTP it's not necessarily that helpful, so we can look at the voter share percentages instead, which gives us the following distribution:

Labour "Soft Red": Average ~44.5% "Hard Blue": Average ~47.0% Conservatives: "Soft Red": Average ~29.2% "Hard Blue": Average ~25.6% Liberal Democrats: "Soft Red": Average ~13.0% "Hard Blue": Average ~12.7% Reform UK: "Soft Red": Average ~8.5% "Hard Blue": Average ~8.4% Greens: "Soft Red": Average ~4.8% "Hard Blue": Average ~6.3%

As you can see the majority of the places that had these Riots had strong Labour majorities, so doesn't it feel a bit odd to suggest that the protestors were 'far-right'? And surely if these protestors were generally fuelled by a far-right sentiment we would have seen more of them occur in areas with very high Reform and Conservative voteshares? I'm well aware that it's an incredibly weak metric, that just because a majority or a plurality of people in a constituency voted one way, I can in no way assume that it's reflected proportionally in people participating in a protest, that being said, I haven't seen any real evidence of the political alignment or self-identification of those arrested or more broadly, those who protested.

This is pure conjecture but I think it's obvious to anyone who watched the riots closely that the vast majority of those attending were apolitical yobs, disaffected angry people, and yes, just perhaps, a few far-right agitators. But in all honesty describing the riots on the whole as being 'far-right' is at best disingenuous, and at worst, a symptom of the general strong left leaning tendencies of regular Wikipedia editors and contributors, especially those with moderators privileges.

Lets keep this website as a source of genuine and well accredited information, please? It's better for everyone that way. Jessrabbitx (talk) 23:43, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

It's not unsubstantiated, though, as I explained to you already. It's reflecting the terminology being used in almost all media outlets. And that's what Wikipedia does. If we were to override the consensus among reliable sources because we according to our own analysis think they shouldn't use that terminology, that would be unsubstantiated and biased. It would be original research. We have policies about this, and they don't say it's "worthless" to point to media consensus, they say that's exactly how Wikipedia works and is meant to work. AntiDionysius (talk) 00:07, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Also when it's been pointed out to you that we are studiously sticking to what reliable sources say and avoiding our own interpretations, I don't think baseless claims that the Wikipedia editor base (and in particular the admin cohort) is politically biased are either relevant or constructive. AntiDionysius (talk) 00:08, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I suppose you're right, I wasn't familiar with how Wikipedia operates, so my apologies, this talk section can be removed. I think there's a broader debate to be had about the reliability and impartiality of British news sources, is there a talk page for what constitutes reliable sources? I would be interested in reading it. Jessrabbitx (talk) 00:33, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

@Jessrabbitx See WP:RS which is a content guidline and WP:RSN where people discuss reliable sources. Doug Weller talk 09:44, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

It should be noted that amongst the sources our article uses for 'far right' is the Daily Telegraph, which has used the term in multiple articles cited. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:13, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

What is that reasoning? That rioters attacking Asian peoples in the UK were found in regions where Asians were?

By that logic, since the riots happened in places where asians were, the rioters were therefore asian.

By that same logic, since the riots happened in places where asylum seekers sought refuge, the rioters included asylum seekers.

Also WP:OR applies. Find a reliable source with that analysis, then we can entertain it. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:40, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

This is WP:OR and also really bad science. Yes someone can be less than 20% of the local population and still be responsible for the events and there are sources to verify that and Wikipedia always follows the sources as long as they are reliable. Jorahm (talk) 17:04, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTALBALL

How is "police said there might later be hundreds more" added to the lead not considered blatant speculation: "Individual scheduled or expected future events should be included only if the event is notable and almost certain to take place."? [1] Are we really suggesting that because police said that there will be further arrests, that this is almost certain to take place?! This doesn't appear to be a summary of the body per WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY either. I removed this before and it has been restored with attribution.[2] How does attribution make this less speculative, or otherwise due for the lead for that matter? CNC (talk) 17:56, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Endorse. we are WP:NOTNEWS. We should present this as an encyclopedic topic, not as speculation on future events. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:09, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Mmm, seems like a very clear case of crystal ball and I'd support its removal AntiDionysius (talk) 22:56, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Indeed this seems like speculation even though it is sourced and the ideal course of action is to wait for the events to actually transpire. Jorahm (talk) 17:03, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

"Farage riots" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Farage riots has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 6 § Farage riots until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 08:51, 6 October 2024 (UTC)